To not appreciate Serena using sexism in her arguments against umpire

[user1471517900]

Sorry if there is a thread, I did scan four pages to check.

Serena gets coached (which her coach admits) but claims she didn't see it. Then smashes a racquet in separate fit of temper. Then tells the umpire she can't be a cheat because she's a mother(!), he will never referee a match again with her, and he's a thief.

The punishments all seem fine to me and I really felt for Osaka having to apologise in her winners speech. Serena should be saying sorry today IMO.

im sorry i dont see anywhere in that video where she has done anything bad. Certainly nothing that a man would even get a raised eyebrow for

itsaboojum
Cricket and rugby are exceptions in their respect for the officials, and I do think the comparisons are interesting, but she is a tennis player, and that has its own culture, so the comparison only goes so far. I also think team sports and individual sports are very different (in lots of ways, but this one noticeably).
I wish I had a fiver for every time we've compared the behaviour of football players and rugby players in relation to the ref. (We watch both, and cricket as well.)

'It may be if those rules are inconsistently applied and if you can prove a bias towards penalising women and particularly black women'

What a time though to make a song and dance about it. Luckily it didn't put her opponent off. It could have done. But it did steel her thunder in victory. The crowd were very quiet.

So many things to say about this!

First of all, congrats to Naomi - I remember being impressed with her at Wimbledon a few years ago, I couldn't believe how young she was, and I think she'll be one to watch over the next few years.

Secondly, the crowd behaved appallingly, but that is par for the course for the US Open crowd - they were also awful during Madison Keys quarter final!

The coaching rule is stupid imo. Everyone is doing it, and it just seems your luck whether the umpire decides to call them out on it or not. But absolutely every coach does it. Not sure if it is fair to penalise a player for the coach's actions. Perhaps it would be better to banish the coach from the stands?

Imo, the umpire did not do his job properly and he inflamed a tense situation. He should have given Serena a warning, that if she didn't calm down then the next step would be a game deduction. He is an experienced umpire, so I don't know why he didn't use his discretion here, other than the fact he was on a power trip.

Serena was obviously stressed, and I think if it had been anything else that she got the initial warning for she would have let it go, but she was furious that the umpire thought that she was getting coaching. I can understand how angry and upset you can get when someone believes something about you that you know is wrong.

I've been thinking about this all night, and absolutely this was sexism. Male players would never be treated as harshly. Serena has a valid point. Not excusing her behaviour, but I can understand how in the heat of the moment she was upset, and again, this is where a good umpire would have calmed things down and allowed the match to be completed properly. Serena wasn't going to win this anyway, and his actions robbed Naomi of a "proper" win.

Serena has had to fight inherent racism and sexism throughout her career, so I do not blame her for her outburst. It must be so tiring to have to fight it all the time. And there are prime examples of the attitude towards her and her sister here on this thread!

Surely the system of penalties for code violations in tennis is a 'zero sum game".

When Serena is penalised, her opponent is awarded a point/game/whatever. So if the argument is that she is being unfairly disadvantaged for being a woman, then the corollary is that her (female) opponent is receiving an unfair advantage.

Let’s say a male player like Andy Murray threw his racket (not a particularly rare occurrence) and was not penalised. Would is (male) opponent then be justified in crying sexism because he had not been granted a penalty point?

"Her coach admitted to coaching, but he also said that Serena didn't see him doing it, so she thought she'd been accused of something she hadn't done."

Just on this point, how can she claim to have not seen it (coaches action of two things up and moving them towards his body) but then also in her first interaction with the umpire where she tries to explain that it wasn't coaching she described it and tried to down play the incident as just a thumbs up.

To go on to call the umpire the list and demand the apology was the height of hypocrisy
What about his apology for wrongly being called a liar (coach had admitted to coaching, the fact that she can describe the thumbs up element of the action shows she did see it) and a thief.

It was disgusting bullying and abuse of her privilege.

While I'm not condoning Serena's behaviour, she does have a point about the double standards.

The opponent who knocked Andy Murray out, was being coached from his box, and nothing was done. Yes it was a different umpire, but if there is not consistent implementation of the rule, then it's not working.

You could argue, I guess, that the umpire in yesterday's final took the decision to penalise, as it was the final. However again, there are examples of coaching happening in male finals, and nothing being done. Rafael Nadal's former coach (his uncle Tonly), used to do it in grand slam finals, it was never called out.

Also, the umpire yesterday (Ramos, I believe) has had far worse abuse thrown at him by male players in the past, but hasn't penalised them.

Again, I'm not condoning what Serena did, but I think she has raised an important issue. If you are going to have rules, they need to be applied consistently, or why bother having them?

NB: I'm really looking forward to seeing Naomi Osaka in the future, I think she's going to become the new dominant force in the game.

The sexism argument was that the umpire was stricter to Serena than he would have been to a male tennis player in the same situation.

Valid argument as Nadal and Djoko have got away with taking way longer to serve than allowed for years and when the odd umpire dares call them up on it (which happens once in a blue moon even though the rules have been tightened) they act all
outraged.

However in this case the umpire is known to be strict and technically speaking Serena had 3 code violations in a row- one is warning, then point, then game. Which are the rules.

And by the way male players all get violations if they break (not throw) their racquet. I remember years ago Safin or Ivanisevic (can't remember which one) broke the frame of his racquet and tried to pretend he hadn't to avoid the violation.
It became rather obvious in the next point that said racquet was clearly broken...

Serena lost me as a fan with the “I’m going to ram this fucking ball down (your) fucking throat” rant at the lineswoman. Today I saw someone whose fairytale comeback was being destroyed by a better player manage to have a massive tantrum and make it all about her. Maybe it was unfair that she was given a warning about her coach’s coaching (which he admits to doing) but it reeks of gamesmanship to respond by smashing a racket and besmirching the character of the umpire (liar and a thief).

I also think Serena’s an amazing athlete who has unequivocally been at the receiving end of appalling racism and sexism. However, today she spoiled the victory of a talented athlete who has also been confronted with racism and prejudice.

'Not excusing her behaviour, but I can understand how in the heat of the moment she was upset, and again, this is where a good umpire would have calmed things down and allowed the match to be completed properly. Serena wasn't going to win this anyway, and his actions robbed Naomi of a "proper" win.'

Suffering is all part of losing. She was suffering. Feeling sorry for her is okay. But feeling sorry for her because she was suffering got turned into a morality issue. It might look like morality (like sexism) but it's fake morality. She was losing and was not going to win.

This umpire does penalise male players. See here

larrybrownsports.com/tennis/umpire-carlos-ramos-history-code-violations-serena-williams/463180

cheese Serena told Ramos he was a liar and a thief. What are your examples of the “far worse abuse” that has been thrown at him by other players that hasn’t resulted in a penalty?

Andy Murray frequently chucks his racket about the court and is rude to the umpire and I have never seen him penalised in this way.
If the racket doesn't break then they don't penalise them. Sometimes the player will continue to play with a cracked racket frame and only change it at change of ends so that the umpire doesn't penalise them.

Stan Wawrinka often breaks rackets and takes the warning without comment. They get a point deduction after two code violations.

I also think Serena’s an amazing athlete who has unequivocally been at the receiving end of appalling racism and sexism

Can you give any examples? I’m not goading, just genuinely curious. As I see people repeat that view a lot but I’m not always sure that it’s because of actual things the speaker can point towards, or whether it’s just something parroted so often people repeat it as gospel if that makes sense.

She behaved appallingly, that’s inescapable.

lolly before the “ram this fucking ball down your fucking throat” rant at the lineswoman (ie when I liked her) I used to hang out on tennis discussion boards and the like and there were frequent comments about how she was really a man, or like a gorilla in a dress. Really awful stuff and presumably heightened by living in the US where racial tensions seem to run high in some places.

However, I watched it today and I saw an entitled brat who was being outplayed having a tantrum. As per badlad’s post, Ramos is known to be a pedantic referee.

Oh the examples of what she has had to put up with are hideous, and multiple, like the gorilla in a dress comment, the Williams brothers comment, the husband mauled by a wild animal comment, the other animal comments including the better off posing for National Geographic than Playboy comment, jokey shoving of towel up fronts and down backs o mimic her physique by fellow tennis players, the moves like a monster truck comments...

A quick google will show very many more...

im sorry i dont see anywhere in that video where she has done anything bad. Certainly nothing that a man would even get a raised eyebrow for

All three incidents were clear violations for which male tennis players have been penalised in the past (a number of examples have been provided upthread or Google them). Men have even been defaulted from matches for repeated code violations.
This is tennis, not football.

I think this is a pretty good article:

www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/sep/09/serena-williams-us-open-tennis-final-2018-game-penalty-naomi-osaka

"On Saturday, Ramos might not have been wrong, but that doesn’t make it right."

Did you all actually watch it or just watch clips?

The fact that the media is digging out pundits to push Serena's case is hardly surprising. The media doesn’t give two hoots about the rights and wrongs of this, tv they know they can make a lot of money out of making sure a controversy will run and run.

Most sports are being ruined at all levels by 'rent-an-expert' style pundits who constantly undermine match officials.

Its about time everyone accepted the basic tenet that the referee's decision is final. They are there to apply the rules. If players can’t accept that then maybe all the refs/umpires should withdraw their services and the new the players can see how they get on without them.

This latest case is so much worse because the clear suggestion is than umpires cant just apply the rules: they’re expected to factor in the back-story too.

www.independent.co.uk/sport/tennis/serena-williams-us-open-final-umpire-naomi-osaka-flushing-meadows-a8529611.html

Not one, not two, but three violations

Ramos is a by-the-book umpire and I wish more were like him

Serena let herself down. Poor Naomi Osaka, her first slam title and still all about Serena

Her behaviour was the same as we have seen from top sportspeople in a number of fields. To get to the top in sport takes extreme dedication and a particular positive mental attitude and belief in your extraordinary abilities.
When those who can impact on your sport, such as umpires and referees, challenge you on your behaviour, the result is often explosive, and far beyond what non professional sports people may show. And to use the arguments that other players have not been penalised in the same way is again counter productive. We can all find examples to both support and refute that argument.
Putting aside arguments that SW has experienced racism and sexism throughout her career, her response to being penalised by an umpire who correctly applied the rules of the game was entirely inexcusable. The rules were broken, sanctions were applied, SW reacted badly. People should stop making excuses for her. That just trivialises the real battles that have taken place over the years to challenge racism and sexism in sport.
Any athlete who reacts in this way to a correctly applied sanction loses a little bit of respect from me for their outstanding Achievements. The most unsettling image I saw of the whole debacle was that of SW with her arm firmly round the shoulder of her opponent, whilst her opponent hung her head and cried. SW caused this situation, and was now displaying her power over the younger player in a very public way.

Ramos is a by-the-book umpire and I wish more were like him

Yes.

It would be nice if the tour organisers backed their umpire actually. I'd hate to think that just because someone famous demands it, that they would give in to the bullying.