To not appreciate Serena using sexism in her arguments against umpire

[user1471517900]

Sorry if there is a thread, I did scan four pages to check.

Serena gets coached (which her coach admits) but claims she didn't see it. Then smashes a racquet in separate fit of temper. Then tells the umpire she can't be a cheat because she's a mother(!), he will never referee a match again with her, and he's a thief.

The punishments all seem fine to me and I really felt for Osaka having to apologise in her winners speech. Serena should be saying sorry today IMO.

It’s like racist apologist bingo on here!

Pc gone mad, some of my best friends are black...

Suckonthatryan...I don’t understand your hostility. It is deeply unpleasant. I am entitled to post an opinion on whether I perceived that cartoon to be racist or not, without having the anti opinion police come out in such personal hostile defence.
As for your equally hostile post about my having a medal for having ‘non white’ friends. I said I have friends of ‘many colours, nationalities and creeds’. But you by your very own misguided inference, have taken that to imply I myself am ‘white’. That in itself speaks volumes. I made the point in in respect of having dear friends, who by regardless of who we are or where we come from, or what we look like, we respect one another, and our opinions. The world doesn’t have to be so unpleasant, it must be very draining to feel that way.

What’s funny is that you are now reacting to your own comments....making inferences that aren’t there. Twisting them into your own mind speak...and then posting about how awful it is. I give up. You seriously have anger issues....

Is it not just another case of someone using their millionaire sports star privilege against a Hispanic person just trying to do their job?

Sorry, you’re right. I am being a little bit mean to you. I just hate it when people come up with excuses for blatant racism. And your “pc gone mad” comment definitely got my back up. It’s one of those lines frequently trotted out to excuse racism. Then you took offence at people swearing? Well, excuse me but I’ll take someone swearing their head off over someone making apologies for racism.

Here’s my serious opinion, as I admit I’ve been a bit mean taking the piss out of you;

Regardless of your skin colour, maybe have a think about why you were so quick to argue that, not only was that cartoon inoffensive according to you, you went further than that and said that those who found it offensive were just pedalling “ridiculous”, “self perpetuating nonsense”, “pc gone mad”. You were very dismissive and disrespectful of other opinions in the first place and then you tried to belittle perfectly valid opinions because they contained swear words. That’s pretty foolish tbh and I found your arguments weak.

Is that a bit clearer and less mean? I do hope so.

I don't watch tennis much but if this is sexism then similar things must have happened in a mens game which went unpunished, can someone point me towards some examples?

I find it hard to believe that a man would have got away with what Serena did. Sure maybe one of the things in isolated incidents but to be caught cheating, then label the umpire a cheat, disrupt the game, break a racket and threaten the umpire with when and where they can work deserves to be punished.

It is disgraceful behaviour by any tennis player no matter the gender and should have been punished more severely.

I'm going to give the people who don't think this cartoon is racist the benefit of the doubt and assume they're ignorant rather than racist. Honestly google cartoon representations of black people throughout the ages especially Sambo and Jim Crow era ones. Those cartoons were undoubtedly racist and featured black people as caricatures with huge clown like lips and noses. The Serena cartoon is obviously supposed to resemble those

@CocoCharlie83 Have a look at this Twitter thread.

@CocoCharlie83 google is your friend. Almost every male top professional tennis player has had incidents of ranting and raving, calling umpires names and breaking racquets. Andy Murray launched a ball at an umpire's head. Novak Djokovic ranted at a ball boy. You don't know about these because they're not given anything like the attention given to a female player who loses her cool and acts like an arsehole

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/people.com/sports/male-on-court-meltdowns-tennis-history/amp/

I should add that several of the examples in the Twitter thread I just posted involve Carlos Ramos, the umpire from Serena's match.

I had a look at the people.com site and many of those got a harsher punishment than Serena. I think their is more of a spotlight on Serena's outburst for a number of reasons with a couple of the main ones being it was in a final and she played the sexist & mother cards. If she had of apologised right after it wouldn't have blown up like it has.

And if Andy Murray shouldn't have kicked the ball but if he was meaning to aim for the umpire then he is playing the wrong sport because 99% of footballers wouldn't have got it that close lol.

Just seen the twitter feed and he seems to be consistent with females and males. But of the examples in the replies I didn't see any for cheating by getting coaching or a combination of what Serena did.

They received code violations from Ramos, not point or game penalties. That’s the difference.

A very sad moment in sporting history.

The more I think about this, the more I am annoyed at Carlos Ramos. Yes, Serena was in the wrong blah, blah, blah. But he is supposed to be an experienced umpire. He should not have pushed Serena to the point where it all got out of control. He was just as bad for not letting it go. He wanted to make a point and make an example of her (and this is where the accusations of sexism come in).

He could, and should, have used his discretion to prevent it getting to such a stage. Serena was losing this match anyway. It was nearing its conclusion, but by not wanting to have a woman appear to be domineering to him, he let Naomi Osaka down, and denied her a "legitimate" triumph. Ok, yes, he stuck rigidly to the rules, but look at the situation he helped to create. Good umpires control tricky situations better.

Can someone explain something to me please? I understand that there is a conversation to be had about whether women are penalised more harshly than men for the same rule infractions. What I don't understand is how that actually impacts the sport, when Serena was playing against another woman. She might have been penalised where a man would not have been, but given that she plays against women, how is she really at a disadvantage in her match?

I think you might get different answers to this, Tessellated, but my take on it would be that this type of sexism is more likely to be exercised when faced with a woman of considerable power like Serena. In other words, Carlos Ramos was arguably showboating by "taking on" the most powerful woman in tennis in a way that he wouldn't necessarily have done with a man because he would feel more comfortable with a man showing the type of aggression or assertion (depending on your point of view) that SW does. It therefore follows that he did not feel the need to challenge Osaka.

It's worth bearing in mind that (I think) no-one is saying this kind of thing is conscious. My feeling is that it's institutional, it's covert, and it's really invisible because it's so ideologised.

I'm not necessarily endorsing this line of argument, but that would be my interpretation of it in the context of an all woman contest such as this.

She was accused of cheating. As was Venus in 2016, by the same umpire.

www.givemesport.com/1386885-umpire-carlos-ramos-issued-coaching-violation-to-venus-williams-during-2016-french-open

It is sexist because these are two powerful women in tennis who have had years of this shit thrown at them. Too fat, too thin, too black, too female, too powerful for their own good being women and all.

he let Naomi Osaka down, and denied her a "legitimate" triumph.

He really didn't.

Lets not deflect the blame from the person that behaved badly, she could have stopped this at any point. but she chose to do what she did.

InigoMontoyaWillcox

Did you watch the entire match? He tried to let it go - at one point, whilst she was ranting at him he just faced forward and let her. She is the one who wouldn't drop it.

placemats

She wasn't accused of cheating either - her coach was, which he then admitted to.

What bollocks placemats - being legitimately penalised for a violation is not sexist.

Carlos Ramos let no one down

Serena chose to harangue him for an apology

She got the game point on her third violation. She knows the cumulative nature of code and time violations.

She behaved badly. Carlos Ramos has little choice.

It's interesting that among those that know tennis, the majority seem to see that.

It’s the threatening behaviour that is specific here. If Serena had been mouthing off in her chair, or swearing on the court then she would have had a warning. It was the specific act of directly threatening the umpire that meant he had to sanction it.
(And again, it’s no. 30 in the ITF rules: Is a player allowed to be coached if the coaching is given by signals in a discreet way. Decision: No.)

When Djokavich argued with Ramos at Wimbledon for example it was an argument. He said something like ‘double standards my friend.’ He was angry and cross. Venus said something like ‘I play fair I don’t cheat’ to Ramos. Angry but not a threat. When Murray said ‘stupid umpire’ to Ramos he was penalised. Because that was a direct insult. (He maintained he had said ‘stupid umpiring’).

"She behaved badly. Carlos Ramos has little choice.
It's interesting that among those that know tennis, the majority seem to see that."

This! I love tennis, have played since childhood and trust me the opinion at my tennis club this morning is firmly in support of the umpire here (and we are a mixed group of sex, age, ethnicity).

Given some of the opinions expressed her it seems that we are now in a place where some people think it's better that an umpire should be intimidated into not doing his job of calling out violations and should put up with abuse in case he is called sexist. How fair is that to any opponent of SW?

One thing I do hope comes out of this is a more consistent application of rules across the board - I agree it's somewhat inconsistent between umpires and I think they should all be far tougher on players actually. Umpires are only human and they get can intimidated when a big name player is on court, I've seen it happen many times and the player gets away with crap. Venus Williams (Whom I like) is notorious for outrageous time violations when she's serving and almost never gets called for it because the (mostly female) umpires are intimidated by her status. God knows I adore Andy Murray but he gets away with poor behaviour far more than he should and it's the same reason, he's a big name and a crowd favourite. He's been allowed to get away with ranting and swearing on court for so long now that it no doubt would feel unfair if the umpires started taking a hard line on it.

I agree Rainbunny - some of these big name players are getting away with behaviour which infringes the rules.