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Original poster

To not appreciate Serena using sexism in her arguments against umpire

518 replies

user1471517900 · 09/09/2018 10:07

Sorry if there is a thread, I did scan four pages to check.

Serena gets coached (which her coach admits) but claims she didn't see it. Then smashes a racquet in separate fit of temper. Then tells the umpire she can't be a cheat because she's a mother(!), he will never referee a match again with her, and he's a thief.

The punishments all seem fine to me and I really felt for Osaka having to apologise in her winners speech. Serena should be saying sorry today IMO.

OP posts:
ShatnersWig · 10/09/2018 13:27

That previous occasion was in 2011. Here's what she did at the US Open in 2009... again to a fellow woman...

Having been given a racket abuse warning after losing the first set of her semi-final against Clijsters, Williams was called for a foot fault on a second serve trailing 5-6 and 15-30 in the second set, thus giving her opponent a match point.

Williams reacted angrily towards the line judge who had made the call, swearing and threatening to shove a fucking tennis ball down her fucking throat. She received a point penalty and therefore lost the match. She was fined a record $82,500 and put on a two-year probation.

Dobbythesockelf · 10/09/2018 13:32

I agree with hippee on this. We shouldn't be encouraging abuse of match officials in any sport regardless of the situation surrounding it. She could have spoken calmly, she could have not thrown her racket which is aggressive no matter how you look at it. It's not a good example for Kids. You can't go throwing things in life and shouting just cause you think you have been treated unfairly, you also can't call people names in everyday life either. So why should she be able to do it just because she is good at tennis?

ShatnersWig · 10/09/2018 13:46

Oh, and with umpire Eva Asderaki, there was more...

""Aren't you the one who screwed me over last time?" Williams said to the umpire. "I truly despise you." Asderaki was not in the chair during the Clijsters match two years ago but punished Williams under the same rule in Doha two years ago. "Seriously, you have it out for me? And I never complain.

"If you ever see me walking down the hallway look the other way," Williams told Asderaki at the next changeover. "Don't go giving me a code violation for expressing my opinion. We're in America, last time I checked. Can I get a water? Or am I going to get violated for a water?"

"Really, don't even look at me. I promise you don't look at me because I am not... Don't look my way."

So, sorry, sexism my arse. She has a problem with authority figures laying down the laws and nearly always when she is losing.

MistressDeeCee · 10/09/2018 14:30

I doubt people dissing Serena as if they know her personally (weird) have a thing to say when racism and sexism is levelled against her. They don't talk about people 'having form for racism.

Everything you lay on her shoulders can be said about other athletes, but your lip is zipped until there's a chance to diss Serena, of course.

She's one if our greatest athletes whatever is said, and petty sniping hasn't stopped that. Shes achieved for years despite the haters. Not many could do that so of course it's a burn that she does

Every thread concerning a black woman on MN is full of people speaking as if black women have to concede to whatever you think she looks, sounds and acts like.

You wish.

One of the greatest athletes ever will continue to achieve, no matter what.. Good.

luckycat007 · 10/09/2018 14:34

I'm also a Serena fan. However I felt sorry for Naomi having her moment overshadowed like that. I get emotions run high but it must have been pretty crap from her POV.

Dobbythesockelf · 10/09/2018 14:41

But people can have form for racism the same way they can have form for acting aggressively. Instead of sticking up for her behaviour maybe we should be looking at how all athletes react to referees/umpires. There are ways of questioning a decision that don't involve throwing things, getting in people's faces and shouting. Her behaviour completely overshadowed another womans first grand slam win.

seventhgonickname · 10/09/2018 14:48

This was talked about on Woman's hour this morning and it does seem that women tennis players are penalised more harshly than male players exhibiting the same behavior.So although her behavior is inexcusable she does have a point.

Aspenfrost · 10/09/2018 14:54

Her coach was not to blame. She was. She is the abusive brat.

BackInTime · 10/09/2018 14:55

Her behaviour was unprofessional, unsportsmanlike and disrespectful to the game, fans and her opponent regardless of her sex or race.

ShatnersWig · 10/09/2018 14:56

But surely the correct response is "Mea culpa"?

She's turned the story into "are women treated differently to men when they behave badly?" The actual story is why do any of these people think it is acceptable to behave this way REGARDLESS of their gender? When Serena lost the US Open in 2011 she received a prize of $900,000. The poor umpire who referred the match and got all the abuse I mentioned above got paid a few hundred dollars.

Sorry, but it's deflecting and minimising the behaviour. Presumably Serena has no problem with actually behaving like that as long as men who do it get the same punishment.

How about the tennis authorities introduce a blanket zero tolerance and anyone who argues with an umpire loses a game straight off?

DolorestheNewt · 10/09/2018 15:22

How about the tennis authorities introduce a blanket zero tolerance and anyone who argues with an umpire loses a game straight off?

I'm no expert, but I would think that one reason is because inconsistent decision making is a problem (across all sports) and some umpires and referees have a widely-held reputation for showboating, including Carlos Ramos. I suspect the tennis authorities - and there's more than one so it would require collaboration and unanimity - think that once you get to the point where the umpire or ref has that kind of power to influence outcomes, there are a lot of unintended consequences. I'd suspect that the authorities have to keep some kind of diplomatic balance with the majority of top players and such a move would be highly unpopular. No player is bigger than the sport, but I think a collective of top players, at any one time, comes damn close...
I'm not making a right or wrong argument here, just thinking about it.

Dickybow321 · 10/09/2018 15:24

When Serena lost the US Open in 2011 she received a prize of $900,000. The poor umpire who referred the match and got all the abuse I mentioned above got paid a few hundred dollars.

What has this got to do with it?

MQv2 · 10/09/2018 15:26

"But surely the correct response is "Mea culpa"? "

Exactly.
Having called the umpire a liar in public, even if she thought he was lying at the time because she hadn't seen it (although that seems highly implausible to me), her coach has since confirmed that the umpire was not lying and was correct in what he saw.
She's really shown her class by doubling down rather than retracting her accusation that he was a liar now it's been shown irrefutably that he was not.

She seemed to think an apology was owed when she decided that he had called her a cheat to the point that she could demand one "say it,say it now, say you're sorry" and threaten his career when one was not immediately forthcoming. Yet when it is shown that she wrongly called him a liar in front of millions she's still somehow the wronged party.

SalemBlackCat · 10/09/2018 15:29

@MistressDeeCee Again, you refuse to answer any points and proof posted, just mindlessly repeating the same bs over and over and over again.

There is no racism against Serena. You are the racist.

SalemBlackCat · 10/09/2018 15:31

Seriously @MistressDeeCee You seem a little too invested in Serena as if you know her personally.

MQv2 · 10/09/2018 15:33

"But surely the correct response is "Mea culpa"? "

Exactly.
Having called the umpire a liar in public, even if she thought he was lying at the time because she hadn't seen it (although that seems highly implausible to me), her coach has since confirmed that the umpire was not lying and was correct in what he saw.
She's really shown her class by doubling down rather than retracting her accusation that he was a liar now it's been shown irrefutably that he was not.

She seemed to think an apology was owed when she decided that he had called her a cheat to the point that she could demand one "say it,say it now, say you're sorry" and threaten his career when one was not immediately forthcoming. Yet when it is shown that she wrongly called him a liar in front of millions she's still somehow the wronged party.

DolorestheNewt · 10/09/2018 15:35

her coach has since confirmed that the umpire was not lying and was correct in what he saw.

Let's have it right. Patrick M. said "I am honest. I was coaching. I don't think she looked one time. Sascha [Osaka's coach] was coaching every point too."

In other words, and there has been a lot of debate on this, this kind of coaching goes on all the time. Carlos Ramos had ample opportunity to compare the behaviour of the two coaches, and he could also have given SW a warning - plenty of precedent for that, rather than going straight to a violation.

I know we'd love it to be simple. But it isn't.

DolorestheNewt · 10/09/2018 15:37

To be fair, MQV2, I'm kind of picking the wrong post to quote in relation to that point. There are much better posts than yours to illustrate the point I'm trying to make, which is that the coach's admission that he was coaching is a really misleading part of the debate if you don't take it in context.

MistressDeeCee · 10/09/2018 15:39

Salem "too invested" is one of those meaningless phrases when someone's not really got anything to say beyond 2 lines when they're trying to diss. Being "Too invested" for you won't reach my list of what I care about.

SalemBlackCat · 10/09/2018 15:46

@MistressDeeCee Considering you have yet to say anything that actually refers to the conversation and points others have made have been ignored, it is more than clear that you either know her personally, or are an obsessed and delusional fan who is far too invested. Either way, you are making yourself look really bad.

downthestrada · 10/09/2018 15:51

Dolores I wondered about that. If both were coaching and the umpire is supposed to be as strict as everyone says, then why weren’t they both penalised? I would have been pissed about that.

Yes, she may have broken some rules. And rightly, points should be taken. But, how on earth do players know what applies to them when some get away with things and others don’t. Women and men need to have the same standards and rules applied. And, certain players shouldn’t be more heavily penalised.

I’m not a huge tennis fan, so maybe I’m misunderstanding or missing something here.

ImKait · 10/09/2018 16:08

The coaching was extremely blatant - she was regularly looking at him and she described part of the gesture to the umpire later. Even if you ignore all that or try to say that the umpire told her the gestures or whatever - she noticeably makes the change he's gesturing for.

You'd have to be wilfully naive to think this wasn't coaching.

Mouratoglou can say that Bajin was coaching too all he likes - I haven't seen any evidence of it. Given that the match was in America, the media was largely American and how many Serena Williams fans there were in the audience, you'd imagine at least a photo would've surfaced by now?

Roussette · 10/09/2018 16:21

Salem I don't believe the WTA is purely US. As is the mens version not... the ATP.

I see the moronic apologists are out in force today
WIJJY That's very rude. What the fuck is the point of a forum if you can't disagree and discuss what you think?

DolorestheNewt · 10/09/2018 16:21

ImKait I was listening to the radio, so I'm a bit at a disadvantage if you watched it, as you clearly did, and I don't think I've got the will to go through the footage so I will absolutely take your word for it!
To be fair, though, Mouratoglou isn't the only one saying that everyone coaches, all the time. It goes beyond a question of simply whether Osaka's coach was too. So I still feel that's an essential bit of context when people get a bit too reductive about it: "he admitted he was coaching, so that's the end, simples, she got caught cheating." I really don't think it is that simple.

downthestrada · 10/09/2018 16:30

I see ImKait it seems he wasn’t telling the truth. Has Bajin commented on it? Not that he needs to but i hadn’t read anything.

I don’t think it’s that simple either if other pros or ex pros are saying coaching happens all the time. It seems it’s not policed fully, that’s why it happens all the time. If you don’t take part in that, then you may be at a disadvantage and if you do, there’s a chance of getting penalised, but only if on that day you have an umpire who decides to strictly go by the rules. It would be better if everybody knew where they stood.