To think that women should stop starting families before they get the ring?

[MeteorGarden]

Ok so hear me out.

I’ve read a few threads now from women who have got themselves into the same difficult situation and judging by hundreds of comments, they are seriously not alone!

They desperately want to marry DP who ‘always said he would’ But now (a few children/ years later) has declared he has no intention of marrying them.

It follows the same pattern, OP wanted to marry early on and DP was open to it but didn’t actually pop the question. OP didn’t force the issue (god forbid she be labelled ‘pushy’ or ‘crazy’) and instead started a family with DP (OP seemed under the delusion that having his children would make him propose).

Why!??
A) Would anyone ‘start a family’ with a man who isn’t proposing to you? If he’s open to it why isn’t he doing it?
B) Is having children becoming just an alternative to getting the ring/ security you want?
C) Would anyone think having his children will make him propose? If you have the kids without a ring it’s fair for him to assume you’re happy enough with the current situation!
D) are so many women put off flatly asking for what they want? It’s terribly backward to just quietly have his children and keep his home in the hope that one day you’ll be ‘rewarded’ you with a proposal! We’re living in a society where you can carry his children but feel uncomfortable asking WHEN he’s going to propose and pushing the issue?!?!

The stories I’ve read are horribly deflating and I empathise with their explanations of frustration and humiliation but wonder if perhaps it could have all been avoided?

We have so much more freedom and independence than our grandmothers, but we’re expected to pretend we don’t care about marriage or kids for the first year of dating so as ‘not to scare a man away’!! WtF?

I wouldn’t ever plan a family with any man I wasn’t married to. It was spelt out to me that the time to lock down my chosen relationship was BEFORE I had children or made irreversible sacrifices!

This kind of thinking seems to instil fury in a lot of modern women but why? Taking the more ‘modern’ approach really doesn’t seem to be working out very well for alot of women so would a bit more tradition In our approach to getting the ring really be that bad?

Maybe if women banded together and made ‘getting the ring’ more socially acceptable we’d be able to push the point and get answers before wasting years with a guy and learning the hard way! Right now it feels men have more power over the marriage process than they really should!

* This applies only to women who ‘want’ to marry but aren’t getting the ring. Not those who don’t want to marry!

Marry/Don't Marry.

It doesn't matter, but be informed, and think about the long term plan before you tie yourself to someone (either by getting married/buying property together/having kids etc).

I don't like the de facto laws here in Oz, I think people should be able to choose whether they legally commit to someone or not.

It is usually women who end up holding the baby so they need to have a plan. Obviously plans don't always work out (though my back up plans have back up plans). But so many women just seem to sleepwalk into situations.

I often post on these threads. I think because its so sad to see that some people thing that single mums should abort their children (see hubbibubbub) or that the "man always walks away" when couples are unmarried (in my case I was unmarried and it was me who walked away, so your always is not correct!). next someone will be saying "why would you buy the cow when you can get the milk for free".

As a feminist i believe that we should really stop knocking women down. just as disgusting, if not even more so, to do that to children. 25% of children live in single parent families the vast majority of whom are single mothers. To say those children should be aborted is unbelievably horrible.

Let campaign for equal rights for women and a society which values mothers and the contribution that they make. Not just if they can secure themselves a husband.

My SIL has been engaged for 15 years. It's a bit of a joke to her now.

I think what you are really saying is women should either have babies and continue working, contributing towards their pensions and ensure they have half the house legally sown up, then they can confidently not be married. However if she gives up work, relies on dp and effectively is out of the jobs market for a decade and doesn't own her home etc she is in a very dangerous position (as are her children) I agree.

I would not have babies with anyone until I was married for that reason. No security whatsoever.

Maybe the better question would be, what laws can we put in place to protect unmarried parents?

Standing on your own two feet or knowing that you can is the basis. Everything else is a bonus. I think a lot of women also put up with shit men because fear of what else is out there; better the devil you know and all that. Interestingly my sister didn't marry my BIL because she was in love with him - she did so because in her absence the children would be more than provided for and they'd never have to worry about the future because he offered a great deal of security and by all accounts is a very decent human.

What I find seems to be the problem is the startling number of women who end up living in a home without their name on the title deeds or mortgage.I'm not really sure how this happens

From reading a lot of these threads it seems to happen from their partners basically hinting stuff. Hinting at marriage (so no need to worry about silly deeds) or hinting at "sorting everything out after the baby comes, wills and shit"

The amount of threads I've read where women seemed to think a Hint = A Promise = Only A Matter Of Time......

Or when pushed, I mean absolutely pushed, the bloke will say "Yes we definitely will get you out on the deeds, but let's get this renovation done first /no point in this house, let's wait till we move somewhere bigger/ let's wait till I get that bonus /let's do x and y first"

Or he explodes with a "WHAT TYPE OF MAN DO YOU TAKE ME FOR I'VE NEVER BEEN SO INSULTED IN MY LIFE MY MUM WARNED ME ABOUT YOU" and storms off to the pub. Deeds safely in his pocket, most likely.

I don’t worry about it because I’m the higher earner and could easily afford to go it alone. My assets are solely in my name. The only joint asset is the house (and I could buy him out and pay the mortgage on my own if I needed to).

I agree mainly with OP, if a woman wants marriage she should insist or move on, and not complain afterwards that he did not change his mind when a family came along. I have a friend like that, and I have told her she is flogging a dead horse, the man got all the benefits of having a family and wife, whilst remaining legally single, I think he had some assets at the beginning and she did not and that was partly the reason, and it is the denial that it is just a piece of paper, when they are in fact desparate to get married and slightly ashamed in front of friends family who are - she thought he would do it after the kids were born.

However, if a woman is not fussed about marriage, and can have a full independant income (hard with small kids though) then she does not need to marry. Just have everything joint like house. She forgoes rights etc but then so does the man, pensions, next of kin etc etc. The laws should look after any kids anyway. The mothers loss of income and career if running a family is the only risk for her.

If my DH had not wanted to marry me, I would have been really disappointed in him and wondered why, and would not have had kids with him, possibly moved on. Because as a young woman, I knew I was the best I was ever going to be looks-wise, was educated and had a good career in front of me and a close family - so why wouldn't there be a queue of eligible guys wanting to marry me?! If a young woman does not have that aura, shes doing something wrong!

There are so many things in this that need unpicking.

My own experience is that I was married once and absolutely hated it. Not my husband you understand, but being married. Marriage brought in many factors it turned out I was not comfortable with; being called 'a wife', changing my name, mutual dependence in everything, societal expectations of how a husband and wife should behave.

I am not married now, I have a partner, we are expecting a child. There are aspects of marriage I want - my partner to be my next of kin, to know that the state will protect the surviving partner and child if one of us dies, to not pay hereditary tax on money we saved together. This are the big ones. With a power of attorney, careful financial planning with shared accounts and a will we can achieve some but not all of that. Marriage would do it but I do not want to be a wife. If there were a civil partnership available for heterosexual couples I would jump at it.

Secondly who the hell waits for a man to propose for them? That is symptomatic of why marriage, in its current state, is not for me. No financially, emotionally and intellectually independent woman would sit on their arse letting their partner make major life decisions about buying a house, or a car, or where they go on holiday together so why on earth would you not mutually discuss and agree the marriage question?

Maybe a couple’s individual financial position before marriage should be “registered”, and taken into account at divorce, as that would be fairer for both parties and maybe that’s what puts some men off marriage?

Funny that men don’t want to insist on getting married before children - or do they have exactly the same parental rights whether married or not? I honestly don’t know!

Maybe the better question would be, what laws can we put in place to protect unmarried parents?

There are already is one: marriage. You chose to have kids without financially protecting yourself and your kids, that's your lookout. The law isn't here to clean up after people who don't bother to educate themselves about its ins and outs. That won't change because as many have pointed out, they do not want live-in lovers to have legal rights over their assets without marriage.

Frangipani so when you took maternity leave, did he pay half the contributions to reinstate your pension rights. * Did he take the same time off so that his employer might see him as a bit unreliable and probably best not to promote to a more senior position?*

Who says I took maternity leave? Who says I lost pension rights? Who says our employers at the time saw us as unreliable because we had childcare responsibilities?

Give over eh.

It's about choices we make.

As other posters have said, marry or don't but don't put yourself in a financially vulnerably position then bleat about it.

Seriously?! So it's womens fault for the rising age of first time pregnancies and the direct result of infertility issues, it's womens fault for wanting to go to work, be paid equally and not get discriminated for using their uterus (or not) and its womens fault for not "locking" men down to "commit" to them too? Where is the seriously thought provoking thread that really looks at why many women are dissatisfied with the "traditional" route (marriage doesn't actually equal stability or even responsibility.... Especially when the institution of marriage tends to attract "traditionalists" (clichés perhaps too) and why the feck we are all still arguing pettily about stuff that really should be changed to reflect how much women have been grossly undervalued and appreciated? Sorry, but a shiny ring don't always cut it. Nice words don't always cut it.

I can see HOW that happens @ElspethFlashman but what I struggle with is WHY....

If you're names not on the property deeds and you aren't married then why would you move in and contribute to the household? For me this is an early doors conversation, and if the bloke huffs and puffs and storms off to the pub then he's telling you loud and clear what type of swell guy he is.

Rideforthehills - you don't have to change your surname on marriage, so I don't understand why you mention that as a downside. What is it about being a wife that you didn't like, if you did like the legal protections? It's not as if you have to tell friends or work colleagues that you are married, if you don't want to? In what way were you treated differently when you told people you were married?

What @Dinorattle1 said with bells on!

My rings are up for sale, I clearly state in advert they hold no meanful sentential value if anyone interested 😂

Why is it thatwomenare being told to stop whining and put up/ shut up?
They aren't being told to put up and shut up. They are being advised to take some responsibility for their own financial situation and own financial security.

Big difference.

I do think it is unreasonable when women choose not to marry AND then think later the law should be changed to give them marrital rights because they've lived with someone.

Everyone (man or woman) should be free to marry or not to. They should be free to decide if they wish to invite the law into their relationships.

As you've seen on this thread, some women have made a choice not to marry because eith their assets and personal circumstances it's not for them. They absokutely should be free to do that.

What some women are pushing for is to remove the freedom of other women to choose not to marry and their desire to limit other women's rights and freedom stems from the fact they don't want to own their own choices.

Haven’t read the thread so no idea what end it’s taken.

I think a hell of a lot of women would be far happier in life if they never had children or got married.

No it is not just womens fault, as someone earlier suggested we were saying. We are just talking about a women bleating here.

I think that there should be civil partnerships if people want them as they do not want marriage. BUT I guarantee that alot of the same guys that do not want marriage, will not want civil partnership.

Weddings do not interest me, marriage does - A marriage in a registry office, like I had, no religion etc, is basically like a civil partnership anyway, so all these people that say the cost of a wedding puts them off blah blah, is nonsense, I got married for under a grand, clothes and 'do' included. Quick to organise too.

YANBU. If you’re that bothered about marriage then don’t tie yourself to someone who’s expressed no desire to marry you.

[santa] Does anyone remember the drunk guy on tv on new years eve who kept misquoting Beyonce's song "if you want it, put a ring around it". 😂

Everyone should be free to choose marriage or not as for some people staying single is to their benefit.

However, if marriage wasn't viewed as a 'romantic fairy tale' rather than what it really is which is a legal contract that ties you both together financially people cohabiting might think twice before putting themselves at risk by giving up work to improve the others persons financial position.