To think that women should stop starting families before they get the ring?

[MeteorGarden]

Ok so hear me out.

I’ve read a few threads now from women who have got themselves into the same difficult situation and judging by hundreds of comments, they are seriously not alone!

They desperately want to marry DP who ‘always said he would’ But now (a few children/ years later) has declared he has no intention of marrying them.

It follows the same pattern, OP wanted to marry early on and DP was open to it but didn’t actually pop the question. OP didn’t force the issue (god forbid she be labelled ‘pushy’ or ‘crazy’) and instead started a family with DP (OP seemed under the delusion that having his children would make him propose).

Why!??
A) Would anyone ‘start a family’ with a man who isn’t proposing to you? If he’s open to it why isn’t he doing it?
B) Is having children becoming just an alternative to getting the ring/ security you want?
C) Would anyone think having his children will make him propose? If you have the kids without a ring it’s fair for him to assume you’re happy enough with the current situation!
D) are so many women put off flatly asking for what they want? It’s terribly backward to just quietly have his children and keep his home in the hope that one day you’ll be ‘rewarded’ you with a proposal! We’re living in a society where you can carry his children but feel uncomfortable asking WHEN he’s going to propose and pushing the issue?!?!

The stories I’ve read are horribly deflating and I empathise with their explanations of frustration and humiliation but wonder if perhaps it could have all been avoided?

We have so much more freedom and independence than our grandmothers, but we’re expected to pretend we don’t care about marriage or kids for the first year of dating so as ‘not to scare a man away’!! WtF?

I wouldn’t ever plan a family with any man I wasn’t married to. It was spelt out to me that the time to lock down my chosen relationship was BEFORE I had children or made irreversible sacrifices!

This kind of thinking seems to instil fury in a lot of modern women but why? Taking the more ‘modern’ approach really doesn’t seem to be working out very well for alot of women so would a bit more tradition In our approach to getting the ring really be that bad?

Maybe if women banded together and made ‘getting the ring’ more socially acceptable we’d be able to push the point and get answers before wasting years with a guy and learning the hard way! Right now it feels men have more power over the marriage process than they really should!

* This applies only to women who ‘want’ to marry but aren’t getting the ring. Not those who don’t want to marry!

Ok, I may not have worded it well (it’s early)

But it’s not ‘my personal situation’ so not the easiest to word. I was up late last night reading a thread by a woman in this situation who was totally heartbroken and there were so many comments from women in the same situations.

It made me so sad for her/ angry for all the women because society seems to take away the social acceptance of them saying ‘look if you aren’t going to marry me this isn’t going anywhere’.

I have no personal victory or validation to gain from this post. I’m not in this situation but I think maybe it’s something women should be talking about as not doing gives men all the power in proposing...or not.

Why should we wait quietly for a man to propose- hoping that one day he will?

And why should women be lured into situations where they’re stuck at home with 3 children and a DP who now won’t marry them!

I gave up work because my employers were so inflexible. You had to be there at 9.30 and couldn't leave til 17.30 and there was no way I could have brought dc to a creche and then got to city on time and my x wouldn't refused to do one of the drops offs or pick ups.

I knew the situation that was unfolding around me and I couldn't make him be a better man.

I only discovered after the baby was born that he would refuse point blank to do one of the pick up drop offs.

I love my partner and he loves me. We will get married one day when we can afford to do it how we want to, but having a family was more of a priority to us. When I was younger I told him no kids until after marriage, but as I matured I have realised that being married won’t change anything for us, I will just have the same surname as my children. Because I see marriage as a joint decision, and not one that I desperately cling to and hope my man will one day grant me

Unless Babdoc's post is the real life scenario then I agree with you. Women should be financially independent in the same way that men don't hopefully and single-mindedly encourage their partners to marry them as some kind of talisman.

It should be on the school curriculum so that boys don't grow up to hold this power and girls are not in thrall by it.

As far as children are concerned, if a man and woman conceive one - they should BOTH be legally and financially responsible for it until the child's 18, jointly and severally liable and in the event that they're both still alive - 50:50.

We wouldn't need this 'wedding nonsense' then and it could go back to two people marrying because they really want to, without coercion and tears/tantrums.

You know something Op I agree.

Women have been told to stop asking for what they really want if they want marriage, it's "tying him down" and it's made out to be something bad for men when actually the benefits, health and otherwise, are much greater for men than women.

It's just another way of controlling and minimising women.

If you don't want married - fair enough. If you do that's a valid viewpoint and should be respected but YOU need to respect it first and foremost by not getting YOURSELF tied down with children before you're in a relationship which meets your own perfectly valid needs.

I think what op is saying is that women have to protect themselves, if they are living with their partner, in their partners house, and they split up, they have no leg to stand on, if they were married, they would have rights. I think, what op meant by a ring, was being married.

I read "ring" as an actual wedding ring. Could be wrong though.

I didn't move in with my OH till the church was booked. Highly unusual. But I had heard quite a few horror stories about that time and they were ringing in my ears!

He wanted us to live together. I responded that the only man I would ever live with was my eventual husband, but until then I was happy to just go on as we were. I meant it. I figured if he didn't want to marry me (or anyone), then he wasn't Mr Right but Mr Right Now and that was fine.

But not everyone hears those stories before they meet someone! Especially when they're young. I was about 30 and several friends around me were starting to feel resentful of their living arrangements with their boyfriends.

And just to say, I hate when I read these threads and the 'tone' is ''you're so stupid to have got yourself in to this shit mess. why were you so stupid''

It'd be so much kinder to say ''you are starting from scratch all right but you can do that. you can still plan a life and it will get easier with every passing year as your child is slightly less dependent on you and you can work more, let's help you figure out your options''.

Coughlaughfart, you have the cheek to post that after the thread you've seen fit to post? This OP isn't being goady.

@P3ony

There a couple on the relationship board right now. I was up late last night reading one. Maybe your just missing them...myself and others seem to be finding them just fine xx

“Did someone order a goady pile of shite? Because it’s arrived.”

I don’t agree. I think the OP is referring to the numerous threads on MN where the woman is left in a vulnerable position because they aren’t financially independent.

“The problems I see on here are women who give up work when they have kids, then break up with partner and are left with no protection for the loss of earnings/NI/pension etc you get if you were married.”

Basically this ^^

“Where marriage is essential is for SAHMs. It’s lunacy to give up work, be totally financially dependent, lose years of pension contributions and career progression, without the legal safeguard of marriage. Such women, as you comment in the OP, are shocked when they realise they’re entitled to nothing in the event of a break up.”

And this ^^

It has nothing to do with morals or the stigma (if it still exists) of being an unmarried mother, but the financial practicalities. Clearly there are still some people who don’t understand the legal implications of not being married to the other parent of your child(ren).

I agree with you OP.

Ok so say a woman wants a baby,knows she has a window in which to do it but doesn't have any ring waving men around. What is she to do? Answer.Make herself financially secure and have a baby on her own. More and more women are doing this quite happily.

Suggesting women need a locked down man to support them when having children is from the 1950s.

I want my dd to have her own financial security and to find a loving partner whenever that may be. Kids can fit in when it suits her if she so wishes.

YANBU.

A piece of jewellery doesn't mean nothing - it comes with a whole host of rights which are important especially if you have children together. It makes him harder to kick you out the house when he's decided family life is too hard and he would rather use it as a shag pad. In the event you split it gives the mother (who's usually earning a lot less having gone part time) a lot better chance of not plunging into poverty if she leaves him. If he starts beating you up and you need to leave, it's not classed as 'his' home if you're married. And if, haven forbid, he dies, there's a lot less red tape to get through.

Talk about ‘marriage’, which is a legal contract, not this ‘ring’ business.

What people need to to is understand and make choices.

If a woman owns a house, bought from her earnings or an inheritance has a secure job / employment prospects and good income , she is not vulnerable, and in fact may make herself more vulnerable by marrying, as her partner will have a claim on her house.

If a woman lived in a house owned by her partner, does not have her name on the dress and mortgage, has paid into that same mortgage maybe, and then gives up get income and future earning / career prospects to be a SAHM then she has put herself in a very vulnerable position.

All this talk of men ‘proposing ‘ and ‘popping the wuestion’: marriage is a contract, a legal partnership. It is 2018. Just discuss it mutually like responsible adults.

Surely better to suggest women are financially independent when they start having families with their partners (married or not). Some women don’t worry about marriage because they can support themselves!

I'd be much worse off if we were married and divorced than just cohabiting with a child. Not marrying yet (were engaged) is my choice as I'm catious now as previously divorced and want to protect my assets for my child.
It's not the 1950's stop assuming marriage or not is the man's choice, men are the higher earners/asset owners and that women want to get married!

@marybobaby

''Because I see marriage as a joint decision, and not one that I desperately cling to and hope my man will one day grant me hmm''

I see your point of course but often men pay more, therefore they have a higher salary, women take time off and lose service in to their pension or don't have one at all, so it's a bigger question than men deigning to marry the mothers of their children.

The huge issue is that parenthood costs women more than it costs men and we must not tolerate that.

“A piece of jewellery doesn't mean nothing - it comes with a whole host of rights which are important”

A piece of jewellery has sentimental value. It is the marriage contract that gives rights.

Half the time I think some women are so hung up on the wedding, the ring, the proposal .....and need to think more about their rights.

So if you want to educate more people let’s stop talking about the fairytale romantic aspects and be accurate in language.

A ring does not give rights.

But women don't need to scarifice their career. Shouldn't we be supporting women to have a decent amount of time off and then careers to go back to ie their own financial security. Other countries manage it.

Shoehorning women and men into marriages they don't necessarily want isn't good for them or their children.

I don't think it's a case of telling women what to do but educating on the rights of married couples and dispelling the myths about common law marriage and cohabiting rights

It’s common knowledge divorce is on the rise and marriage is on the decrease. Getting married doesn’t mean their going to stay with you, getting married doesn’t mean you will want to stay with them. Death associated with cancer and different types of diseases is killing our population off earlier - we have no guarantees. Yes it would be nice for the father of our kids to show the love and connection by proposing but when it comes down to it, people are scared, it’s hard living off of one wage. I do think both parents should work if that’s what works for them but I also know how difficult it is with a load of kids running around. The fact is we’re here to procreate - I’ve got different fathers to my kids and I’m glad I married either of them

There seems to be an awful lot of laziness i.e. don't sort out your own financial security,leave it all for a man to provide and then stamp your foot for a ring incase it all goes wrong.

Err no thanks.

You really are a smug married aren't you OP? You've got it all figured out.

Enjoy your eventual divorce