To think that women should stop starting families before they get the ring?

[MeteorGarden]

Ok so hear me out.

I’ve read a few threads now from women who have got themselves into the same difficult situation and judging by hundreds of comments, they are seriously not alone!

They desperately want to marry DP who ‘always said he would’ But now (a few children/ years later) has declared he has no intention of marrying them.

It follows the same pattern, OP wanted to marry early on and DP was open to it but didn’t actually pop the question. OP didn’t force the issue (god forbid she be labelled ‘pushy’ or ‘crazy’) and instead started a family with DP (OP seemed under the delusion that having his children would make him propose).

Why!??
A) Would anyone ‘start a family’ with a man who isn’t proposing to you? If he’s open to it why isn’t he doing it?
B) Is having children becoming just an alternative to getting the ring/ security you want?
C) Would anyone think having his children will make him propose? If you have the kids without a ring it’s fair for him to assume you’re happy enough with the current situation!
D) are so many women put off flatly asking for what they want? It’s terribly backward to just quietly have his children and keep his home in the hope that one day you’ll be ‘rewarded’ you with a proposal! We’re living in a society where you can carry his children but feel uncomfortable asking WHEN he’s going to propose and pushing the issue?!?!

The stories I’ve read are horribly deflating and I empathise with their explanations of frustration and humiliation but wonder if perhaps it could have all been avoided?

We have so much more freedom and independence than our grandmothers, but we’re expected to pretend we don’t care about marriage or kids for the first year of dating so as ‘not to scare a man away’!! WtF?

I wouldn’t ever plan a family with any man I wasn’t married to. It was spelt out to me that the time to lock down my chosen relationship was BEFORE I had children or made irreversible sacrifices!

This kind of thinking seems to instil fury in a lot of modern women but why? Taking the more ‘modern’ approach really doesn’t seem to be working out very well for alot of women so would a bit more tradition In our approach to getting the ring really be that bad?

Maybe if women banded together and made ‘getting the ring’ more socially acceptable we’d be able to push the point and get answers before wasting years with a guy and learning the hard way! Right now it feels men have more power over the marriage process than they really should!

* This applies only to women who ‘want’ to marry but aren’t getting the ring. Not those who don’t want to marry!

[Haireverywhere]

That would be a good title for the thread too!

[staydazzling]

I agree, i did everything backwards though dc1 at 19, dc2 at 22 married at 23.if everything was to go tits up and i met someone else no way would i be giving them children without the security of marriage. In terms of legal security if nothing else.

[feelingnothing]

There should be a middle finger emoji on this app

[Haireverywhere]

@staydazzling - It's just good to see all the legal information presented, not so we beat ourselves up over it

[StripeyDeckchair]

I'm living in the 21sr century where couples make decisions together. My partner and I discussed our relationship, what we wanted and where we/it was going then decided to get married.

The whole concept of hoping a man will propose is so outdated and sexist, I'm raising my children to see that relationships are a partnership, that might be a marriage or it might be living together. I'm a huge advocate of drawing up a legal agreement prior to living together ot cover financial assets and money.

[WhatsGoingOnEh]

I'd say women should t live with men if they'd prefer to be married than to cohabit forever.

Living together gives men ;and women) 100% of the fun of marriage with 0% of the financial risk.

That's what stops "the ring". To men, living together is a side-step away from marriage, not a step towards.

[ThumbWitchesAbroad]

@Meteorgarden - you might want to consider reporting your thread title to MNHQ and getting it changed to better reflect the content - "the ring" aspect is sidetracking too many posters, I feel.
I agree that there is a lot of useful info coming out of this thread but it will be lost on some who just get hung up on your "ring" comment.

[MeteorGarden]

@thumbwitch

I’ve reported and asked them to change x

[EBearhug]

Not having your own separate bank account is also a pita if you find yourself frozen out of the joint account. Plus useful to have more than one account in the event of system failures etc

This, absolutely this. Have a joint account, if it makes sense. But always, always maintain your own account as well. My mother called hers her "running away fund", but it made things massively easier in the immediate aftermath of Dad's death, when all his accounts were frozen until the banks had seen the death certificate and certified copy of the will. And how many threads have there been here, with women who say they can't leave because of the money? I know it's not easy - I've lived where I've had to count literally every penny, but even if you put away a fiver or tenner a month, there could be times where every little does end up counting.

[AdoraBell]

Absolutely agree EBearhug

My mother never had a bank account. It took her forty plus years to get away. The money was just one aspect, there was far less support in the 60’s/70’s.

I have had my own bank account since I was 16. DH and I have joint accounts, current and savings, but no one will ever convince me to to give up my own bank account. I have also drummed this into my DDs.

[SnuggyBuggy]

My DGM had to open her first bank account when she was widowed at 85!

[PrimalLass]

I've met friends/acquaintances in real life who've been ADAMANT that it does - even claiming it does in Scotland

It sort of did until 2006 if the couple were living as married and everyone thought they were married. Now there is an aspect of the law that allows cohabitating couples a year after a split to sue for a share of assets. At least that's how read it.

[Graphista]

Primal - yes that's how a lot of people who weren't trained lawyers 'read it' the reality is it was never that simple and as you say now definitely doesn't exist at all.

But yea most of the people I'm talking about weren't referring to that but absolutely convinced (with variations in what they thought was the timescale - some thought if you'd lived together a year, some 2 some 3) that in scots law common law marriage was recognised as fully as actual legal marriage which it never was.

Ebearhug - my parents marriage is miserable. Father is an abusive now dry drunk. Mums had a 'running away fund' for some years but I doubt she'll ever use it. They do have all sorts of legal stuff sorted for when he dies (well either of them but he's more likely to go first with the damage the drink has done), but this is separate and he doesn't know about it.

As I said I don't think she'll ever leave its been nearly 50 years! But I think just knowing she has it gives her a little more confidence. A little bit of an internal 'fuck you' to him.

I was stupidly naive to trust my ex as much as I did. He seemed so much better than my dad you see. What I wasn't prepared for was for him simply being a different kind of bastard!!

[zsazsajuju]

I suppose the angry feminist comments are aimed at least partly at me. I don’t think I am any angrier than anyone else, but I’m certainly a feminist.

The op makes some pretty nasty misogynistic remarks about unmarried mothers and their children. I am a single mother and I make no apologies for standing up for us. None at all. People who post such things as are on this thread (eg how they have an abortion if they were unmarried and pregnant) about single mothers should be ashamed. They are certainly not feminists. We single mothers get a tough time and it’s a hard life as it is.

Graphista, your post that you don’t have to be married to someone for them be be a financial risk makes no sense. The risk on marriage is that you may have to give some of your assets to your spouse on divorce - the benefit for some is the disadvantage for others.

Not everyone can provide for themselves. But further perpetuating a system which subordinates women is of no great benefit to us. Financially poorer women perhaps sometimes can insist on marriage other times not. I don’t think marriage is the answer to gender inequality.

That’s nice that some people have acquaintances who claim that they do think that there is common law marriage. I don’t and have never come across anyone. I think you would have had to have lived in a cave for the past 20 years to think that. Ultimately though, people think all sorts of crazy things. You can educate them (marriage v cohabitation was covered for me at school- were you guys bunking off?) but people don’t always listen.

really these threads are just smugly deriding woman who are unmarried with children. Op called them stupid in capital letters in one post. This apparently was in response to a thread posted by a pregnant woman who sadly was breaking up with the father of her child as he would not marry her and had been left in a bad situation. The idea that they are somehow a feminist campaign to educate women about the benefits of marriage does not ring true.

There is a really nasty undercurrent (quite explicit in some posts) in these threads of misogyny. Women who didn’t “get the ring” are “stupid”. You can try all you like to pretend that it’s about women’s need for “protection” but really it seems to me like a lot of women still like to sneer at unmarried mothers.

I didn’t marry my ex because I didn’t want to. He wasn’t the one. But I still cared about him deeply and in no way ever for a second regret my dcs. Not being married financially benefited me but I would still not have wanted to get married even if if didn’t. But it is deeply sexist to assume that women are always financially benefited by marriage, we are not.

Life is not simple. I hope you will appreciate that when you are older op. You might think that you would never be a single mother but many single parents thought that before they were single parents.

Of course women should feel they can insist on marriage if it’s important to them for whatever reason. To me though, as an advocate for single mothers, the most important thing is to recognise the hard work and determination that’s takes to be a single mother but also how rewarding it can be too. Noone should think you need to abort your child because you are unmarried. It’s 2018. Not should people advocate such things to others.

It’s really tough being a single parent (and working full time) but I wouldn’t change it for the world. No more shaming (or attempted shaming in my case) of unmarried mothers please!

[Graphista]

Zsazsa - YET AGAIN cherry picking and twisting what people have said!

NOBODY has said unmarried mothers should be ashamed you are bang out of order claiming that!

NOR did anyone say marriage was an answer to inequality! Myself and others said that UNTIL equality is achieved this is one way a woman can partially protect themselves from worst case scenarios in the event of the loss or departure of their partners.

NOR did anyone say women ALWAYS benefit from marrying, instead myself and others said that women need to be BETTER INFORMED so that THEY can decide if it's for them or not.

In the meantime RATHER than taking your stance - which is divisive and antagonistic and frankly plays right into the hands of the patriarchy by the way!

I've been a Lp 15 years I bloody well know how tough it is being a single parent!

I did NOT say not that financial risks were the same for those married and not married. It's more complex than that.

How old are you? Because this certainly WASN'T covered when I was at school. And I can assure you not due to me missing classes! My friends and family and acquaintances that believed common law marriage existed are of all ages and backgrounds.

As for "as an advocate for single mothers" I can certainly think of several in my life who wouldn't accept you as their advocate.

[MaisyPops]

YET AGAIN cherry picking and twisting what people have said!
Spot on.
But why let reading people's posts get in the way of exaggerating what people are saying and going off on a bingo sheet of sneer/judge/sexist etc?

[Bluelady]

I'm not sure that anyone who seriously wants to be regarded as a feminist would use the expression "the one". If a guy's not good enough to marry, why have children with him?

[user1492863869]

zsazsaju

Some of us read with pride the stories in this thread and on here generally about women who are independent and non reliant on another adult/man. So well done you for achieving what should be our real goal, independence and freedom of choice.

We should all know the risks of either choice and I agree with others that there is no reason why we shouldn’t. I do worry that a lot of women feel compelled by an overwhelmingly desire to have children and that leaves them vulnerable to poor choices. But I also worry that for a lot of women the institute of marriage is a false hope of security or a false dream of love. That 50+% of bugger all is bugger all. For a lot of couples the idea that they can accrue pensions and equity is just a non starter in the short term at least. Yet the woman still gives up her job or goes part time tomhave children and ends up trapped or abandoned to the same problems as a cohabitee.

What struck me about the OP in the other thread was that getting married was not going to give her security. In fact I would hazard a guess that he would marry her and she would continue to work PT or give up altogether because now she is “secure”. But his promises of buying a home would never materialise because his is a commitmentphobe. At some point he would walk away because that is his behaviour and he will realise that divorce without assets isn’t that complicated. In fact, just separation gives him a life long excuse never to marry again. We hear about enough of this type on here. For me, her best choice is to not give up her career or sacrifice it any form, unless he has a pile of money and a good income. But she was desperate for marriage or a ring to show he loved her, as much as the other women in his life. 🤷‍♀️

[zsazsajuju]

There you go BlueLady-“idea he’s good enough to have children with he’s good enough to marry”. Lol. I chose to have children outside of marriage like many women. Sorry if you don’t approve.

Graphista - lots of people on this thread said pretty nasty things about unmarried mothers (eg op said they were stupid). If you think that behavior is acceptable you should be ashamed (I said posters who were nasty about single mums should be ashamed and stand by it).

[Bluelady]

More twisting. I said the exact opposite. Don't let that stop you.

[PineapplePower]

The whole concept of hoping a man will propose is so outdated and sexist

I actually agree with this. It should be a mutual discussion among equals. I think proposals and engagement rings should become a thing of the past .... somehow.

[Bluelady]

I was with you until you wanted to ditch engagement rings. I love mine.

[RosiesYellowDress]

Me I all about ‘marriage’ is all about the lurve, commitment, trust honour and respect forever rest of our lives. United in our long standing perfect relationship creating our own happy ‘having it all’ world.

1st lesson of ‘life shit really does happen to you after all and not just others.

That ring for reasons that won’t make logical sense also carries its burdens, restrictions of freedom that can break you.

Had I been who I am today knowing information then yes things would be different. Hell fuck I’d be Queen of that castle being fanned with ££££ in cash of mine in safe I was scared to take back then which no ring status would of changed my mind.

2nd lesson I learnt being alive is priceless.

I’m not a advocate for the riches to rags life hell fuck I’m older and wiser I said and I still believe in the fairytale reason for marriage. No harm can come from Knowing info and where how or putting legally binding plans.

Regardless I know it’s been root of the cause to why few relationships had since my fairytale ended is why they broke down as I will never ever in this lifetime put me & offsprings in position that we could lose everything.

I’ve surrendered my magnet that attracts ones that either want mothering rahh fuckoff or come to the future from the 1950 to rescue me rahh fuckoff

[zsazsajuju]

Emm not so much you didn’t BlueLady. And I don’t understand your feminist objection to “the one”. I didn’t want to settle.

Lots of people can be good parents to their children without being married to each other. Conversely lots of married people are shocking parents.

[Bluelady]

I asked you why a man would be good enough to have children with but not to marry. I wouldn't contemplate having children with someone like that.

"The one" sounds like something from Mills and Boon or a teenage comic.