To think that women should stop starting families before they get the ring?

[MeteorGarden]

Ok so hear me out.

I’ve read a few threads now from women who have got themselves into the same difficult situation and judging by hundreds of comments, they are seriously not alone!

They desperately want to marry DP who ‘always said he would’ But now (a few children/ years later) has declared he has no intention of marrying them.

It follows the same pattern, OP wanted to marry early on and DP was open to it but didn’t actually pop the question. OP didn’t force the issue (god forbid she be labelled ‘pushy’ or ‘crazy’) and instead started a family with DP (OP seemed under the delusion that having his children would make him propose).

Why!??
A) Would anyone ‘start a family’ with a man who isn’t proposing to you? If he’s open to it why isn’t he doing it?
B) Is having children becoming just an alternative to getting the ring/ security you want?
C) Would anyone think having his children will make him propose? If you have the kids without a ring it’s fair for him to assume you’re happy enough with the current situation!
D) are so many women put off flatly asking for what they want? It’s terribly backward to just quietly have his children and keep his home in the hope that one day you’ll be ‘rewarded’ you with a proposal! We’re living in a society where you can carry his children but feel uncomfortable asking WHEN he’s going to propose and pushing the issue?!?!

The stories I’ve read are horribly deflating and I empathise with their explanations of frustration and humiliation but wonder if perhaps it could have all been avoided?

We have so much more freedom and independence than our grandmothers, but we’re expected to pretend we don’t care about marriage or kids for the first year of dating so as ‘not to scare a man away’!! WtF?

I wouldn’t ever plan a family with any man I wasn’t married to. It was spelt out to me that the time to lock down my chosen relationship was BEFORE I had children or made irreversible sacrifices!

This kind of thinking seems to instil fury in a lot of modern women but why? Taking the more ‘modern’ approach really doesn’t seem to be working out very well for alot of women so would a bit more tradition In our approach to getting the ring really be that bad?

Maybe if women banded together and made ‘getting the ring’ more socially acceptable we’d be able to push the point and get answers before wasting years with a guy and learning the hard way! Right now it feels men have more power over the marriage process than they really should!

* This applies only to women who ‘want’ to marry but aren’t getting the ring. Not those who don’t want to marry!

the best way to protect yourself and your children in the event of a split is to be married.

The best way to protect yourself and your children is to not (by choice) put yourself in the position of being financially dependant on someone else in the first place.

I've been with DH for over 20yrs, I have never and will never be financially dependant on him.

Frangipani did you not suffer any loss of earnings at all when having kids then?

It’s all well and good saying that 42% of marriages end up in divorce, but the point is in those situations the lower earner and main care provider are guaranteed at least some rights and stability if a breakdown does occur, which isn’t the case with the majority of cohabiting relationships.

Posters come on and explain that they’ve actively decided not to marry and have made provisions for a split or death, which is admirable. But is that honestly the case for the vast majority of cohabiting couples?

I don’t know about you, but of the 6 unmarried with kids couples I know, 5 of them are engaged, so they clearly have no problems with marriage as an outdated misogynistic concept. They just haven’t got round to an actual wedding yet, for various reasons but usually because they feel they can’t afford the wedding they want.

These are the women I’m worried about- not educated, high earners posting here who are savvy about their rights and have legal agreements, wills etc. The low earners, usually working part time or not at all, where the DP has had two promotions while she’s been looking after the kids but she’s not on the mortgage because it was easier if he applied on his own.

Erm, don't give up your career, get your OH to share the burden or childcare and if he refuses then WTF are you doing having kids with and thinking about getting married to the moron for?

Yeah, if you can't physically force him to drop his own hours at work or even get off the sofa then just pop in your fine machine and take that baby-having back

If MN has taught me anything it's that a lot of people find their OH isn't the father they'd thought he'd be. When it was just the two of then he'd clean and help out, but when you have a child in the mix and everyone is tired, suddenly he's an entitled prick who only does the bare minimum because apparently working more hours means you shouldn't help with housework and childcare.

I've found the best way to protect myself is absolute financial freedom. Own career . Own my own home . Zero dependence on any man at all

Good for you. Other women aren't sitting round rejecting these things you know, some dont have them or the choice

@P3ony

And op can I ask as a happily married wife why are you hanging around on the relationship board. I'd only go there if I had relationship problems,which as a longterm unmarried I don't.

Yes well, passive aggressive smugness is often met with passive aggressive sentiments!

Especially after I complimented your parenting approach and didn’t directly disagree with anything you’d said ... other than some women want to get married and (god forbid) stay home with their children and that maybe you angrily commenting on every thread related to this topic blasting them for not being ‘independent career women’ literally does not help anyone!!!

You’re not supporting women if you only value one approach and one mindset and you make passive aggressive comments about those who don’t think that way.

Honestly I’ve never ‘had a go’ at anyone over mums net but I’ve seen you posting relentlessly on topics like this and you seem to think women who don’t think like you are awful!

So please don’t paint yourself as just standing up for unmarried parents. You’ve made two pointless digs at me in this post and I’m unmarried too (and my OP clearly states it only applies to women who want to get married)

YANBU OP

"I think it has done women no favours at all to move to a situation where men get to opt for less and less responsibility and women always the ones left holding the baby so to speak."

This^^

The low earners, usually working part time or not at all, where the DP has had two promotions while she’s been looking after the kids but she’s not on the mortgage because it was easier if he applied on his own.
I agree.
The women who end up sacrificing a lot, staying at home, paying towards a mortgage for a property that they arent on the deeds for, proving all the family care and running the home, enabling DP to have his career. If the relationship ends she gets nothing and he had a high paying job and a nice house.

In those situations, marriage would give the woman some protection (and the cynic in me says the man knows that which is why he won't marry).

Let women make their own choices
Except that their choice is to get married but they ARE stuck in the 1950s where you aren't allowed to propose or to discuss that you want to be married, you have to sit around passively waiting to be recused from spinsterhood.

Whats sad about these threads is that rarely is anyone saying

"we should have a more system of work that recognises that some people (usually woman) have childcare responsibilities" or

"we should have a system of child support that recognises the true burden and cost of being a resident parent (which usually falls on women"

No, its all shaming women for having children without being married. its sad that some women still see getting married as an achievement but there you are.

Ideally childcare would be shared 50/50 and the mother could stay financially independent and not be disadvantaged by child rearing. So in those cases, yes marriage could be seen as unnecessary.

But in reality a lot of men change after their partners have children. They become uncooperative, spending longer hours at work and expect her to pick up the slack. Her career suffers. She may find exhaustion or working around nursery hours forces her to cut back her hours. My own ex was fantastic around the house until we had children. At this point he decided to take work that involved significant periods working away from home.

Even if the man is a good parent, no-one can guarantee that their child won't have significant disabilities. In these cases it may be impossible for one parent to work and the burden of care falls on the woman.

Add to this the worry that a lot of businesses still discriminate against mother's - many women are made redundant during pregnancy. Women as a group still don't get paid as much as men.

In view of these points, I don't think it's possible for a large section of the female population to guarantee that will remain financially independent at all times following childbirth. For them marriage before children makes sense

I totally agree and I am one of those women, and it’s happened twice! I’m financially screwed with two kids from different Dads and didn’t marry either of them. I am a fool, I wasn’t selfish enough and my mother bought me up to be open and trust others good nature.

If I had a daughter I’d be telling her to marry first!

I think in my nature I believed too much in others. I trusted that they would play fair. It’s a real shame to end up worse off because of that belief.

My first DP asked me to marry him, and we were getting to the point of planning the wedding. I was the main earner and the mortgage solely in my name, so I felt financially strong. We planned kids and the thought of protecting myself never occurred to me, it’s just not a conversation I had with my feminist and career minded circle. We had the baby very quickly, I realised he was not a good match, we broke up.

Do you know what I actually gave him half the profits from the house!

Second DP, more cautious but also aged 40 it was my last chance for another child. I had a good full time job. I only moved in once we’d established that we agreed to have another child, and to marry. Chances of having the child were very, very slim, told by Dr it was below 5% and would rapidly tail off. So we just went for it to try for a baby and had said we’d marry soon, but it got delayed as I ended up pregnant straight away and he dumped me! I’d only just moved in.

In a seriously precarious position now, work was contract so will not renew now I can’t work all hours, DP has mortgage in his name. I do have a rented house but a big mortgage. I have no claim to DPs equity in his house from the time I moved in at all and he’s not giving me enough if I move out for rent. Stuck!

The above situation is what marriage was invented for. Don’t do it girls!

OP has a point.

Accidents happen, but it is a bad idea to deliberately get pregnant with a man's child without being sure that both of you are on the same page and want the same things out of life. If you want to get married, don't have children with a man who doesn't. And if he says he does want to get married, do it before having kids.

If you do find yourself unmarried and pregnant, you and your partner need to have an honest talk about money before you have the baby. Ideally you should be going back to work full-time after maternity leave, and during maternity leave he should be paying you half of anything you lose in earnings and covering your pension contributions. If any of that isn't possible or you disagree or want to be a SAHP, get married.

🍿🤔

All the 'well, just be financially secure before you have babies (you silly women)' stuff bears very little resemblance to the reality of having a child or children.

100%.

All of matcha's post should be required reading but this in particular hits the spot. It's a good idea to think about your own financial security as an individual before having children, but the idea that all women are going to be able to save the necessary money is verging on Marie Antoinetting.

Although OP, I have to say I don't think your terminology here is the best. You seem to be focusing a lot on engagement in your post. But that means nothing. If you mean marriage, that should be spelled out.

Wouldn’t it be good if we had a society where It was totally socially acceptable for a woman to say to a man,

“Look we’ve been dating for a while and marriage is important to me. Is this going to happen and if so when?”

I did this with my DP and when I tell anyone that I’m met with utter disbelief, like how dare I have brought it up? There such a stigma but why should I be coy about what?
You don’t get a job by not applying for one, or a house by not viewing one or a car by not going out and buying one. Why should I expect a proposal if I don’t ask for one?

He’s planning to propose shortly!!! Would you believe it he was as nervous to have the conversation as I was and feels way more comfortable now since he knows I will say yes!!

I just don’t think any woman should be called names or made to feel awkward for being upfront about what she wants. It should be the norm to have a conversation about where your relationship is going early doors!!

No woman should be obligated by society to just take the gamble and hope that one day they get to get married!!

@tortoisecharlie - you didnt end up any worse off because you werent married. You gave your other ex-p half the proceeds of the house voluntarily. which is up to you but nothing to do with not being married.

I think "the ring" or marriage is a red herring op. You are focused on the wrong problem.

If you meet someone, start living together feel comfortable and committed, get married buy a house then have children. You have some financial security and accountability, obviously. I did the live together, buy house together, get pets together (big commitment) then have kid. I asked DH to marry me, we got inexpensive rings and had a quick registry office wedding telling most people after the ceremony. The wedding thing was not a big deal and I just wanted the security of the paperwork as a new mother in a more vulnerable position.

I do not judge unmarried mother's, I was born before my parents married cos my dad was still married to someone else! That is life. If they had done the decent/ sensible thing me and my younger siblings would not exist.

It is not marriage as an institution that protects women - marriage exists because women were thought of as property to be signed over (possibly with some land) from a father to a husband. Poor women didn't get married they had babies and carried on with their lives. Just as happens today.

When you are loved up and want a baby or you are loved up and accidentally have a baby - then it is luck more than good judgement that decides your future success. I could say I had a baby before I got married but I knew DH would marry me and stay committed for (so far) 19 years. But really it is dumb luck! I can't retrospectively apply a plan that I never made. Before I had a child I had no interest in or desire to marry. It is possible to be totally fucked over in a divorce there are plenty of threads to that effect on MN.

Legislation and a marriage contract makes some things easier but there are no clean breaks everything is messy in a divorce, in a separation or in a miserable marriage with people holding on to a dead relationship with grim determination.

It is easy to blame a woman for having a baby without being married but you have to hold the man equally responsible or you are holding men up to a different, lower, standard.

How about men stop starting families with women they’re not really bothered enough about to marry? How about they use contraception 100% of the time?

Why is it just women’s responsibility, OP?

I think those focussing on "the ring" aspect are deliberately missing the point. The OP's OP is quite obviously not about jewellery

In those situations, marriage would give the woman some protection (and the cynic in me says the man knows that which is why he won't marry).

Me too. Men have been taught to believe that women are after one thing and flatter themselves that they're going to be some victim of a gold digger.

@ohreally

Totally 100% agree!! My OP very much just focused on the women posting their stories on MN but men have just as much responsibility.

Even though mums are often left with the mess!

Oh and it's worth bearing in mind every relationship will one day end. Every one. Either by splitting up or by one partner dying.

Think about what you need in that eventually. Not just now, but when you have young children, or teenagers, or you are retirement age or if you become ill or disabledand can't work. Do your current arrangements provide security in these scenarios?

I am not sure it is to do with marriage but at least legally make sure you are financially secure ? I know someone who moved in , only paid for food nothing to do with mortgage payments or bills . Then chose to get pregnant . Had twins . Now 6 months later has split up and what security does she have except for maintenance? Not much I don’t think . No claim on the house and now technically is homeless with 6 month old twins . So yes I do agree that some sort of security should be there before entering into having a family . For some that is marriage . For others it may be just a legal agreement about property. But I do get puzzled that people think marriage is the biggest and hardest decision , but having a family is not? It should be the other way round IMO .

Men who won't marry the mothers of their children will most likely leave for someone they see fit to marry, usually younger, once the banal aspects of family life seem boring.
With hindsight I would not have had children without marriage. For the security.

What about women who don't want to get married? You seem to assume they all do. The idea of women all agreeing to push for marriage is mad, why not suggest that women begin proposing to their OHs rather than waiting around? Also I'm very excited to be speaking to a real live time traveller so thanks for that OP.