To think that women should stop starting families before they get the ring?

[MeteorGarden]

Ok so hear me out.

I’ve read a few threads now from women who have got themselves into the same difficult situation and judging by hundreds of comments, they are seriously not alone!

They desperately want to marry DP who ‘always said he would’ But now (a few children/ years later) has declared he has no intention of marrying them.

It follows the same pattern, OP wanted to marry early on and DP was open to it but didn’t actually pop the question. OP didn’t force the issue (god forbid she be labelled ‘pushy’ or ‘crazy’) and instead started a family with DP (OP seemed under the delusion that having his children would make him propose).

Why!??
A) Would anyone ‘start a family’ with a man who isn’t proposing to you? If he’s open to it why isn’t he doing it?
B) Is having children becoming just an alternative to getting the ring/ security you want?
C) Would anyone think having his children will make him propose? If you have the kids without a ring it’s fair for him to assume you’re happy enough with the current situation!
D) are so many women put off flatly asking for what they want? It’s terribly backward to just quietly have his children and keep his home in the hope that one day you’ll be ‘rewarded’ you with a proposal! We’re living in a society where you can carry his children but feel uncomfortable asking WHEN he’s going to propose and pushing the issue?!?!

The stories I’ve read are horribly deflating and I empathise with their explanations of frustration and humiliation but wonder if perhaps it could have all been avoided?

We have so much more freedom and independence than our grandmothers, but we’re expected to pretend we don’t care about marriage or kids for the first year of dating so as ‘not to scare a man away’!! WtF?

I wouldn’t ever plan a family with any man I wasn’t married to. It was spelt out to me that the time to lock down my chosen relationship was BEFORE I had children or made irreversible sacrifices!

This kind of thinking seems to instil fury in a lot of modern women but why? Taking the more ‘modern’ approach really doesn’t seem to be working out very well for alot of women so would a bit more tradition In our approach to getting the ring really be that bad?

Maybe if women banded together and made ‘getting the ring’ more socially acceptable we’d be able to push the point and get answers before wasting years with a guy and learning the hard way! Right now it feels men have more power over the marriage process than they really should!

* This applies only to women who ‘want’ to marry but aren’t getting the ring. Not those who don’t want to marry!

😂 @penisbeaker

@pineapple

Please don’t think I’m classing all fememists as ‘angry femenists’ I was using that term to refer specifically to the wonderful category of women who come of threads like this and purposley misinterpret/ shame and generally act antagonistically.

Many ‘fememists’ will see both sides. I class myself as a fememist in the way that I believe every single woman has the right to an un restricted choice for her future.

If you want to be a rocket scientist, awesome. If you want to be a SAHP and have the ability to do that, also awesome xx

• my spell check does not like the word feminist

Well, plenty of us pointing out that marriage advantages women as a class are angry feminists OP! We're the ones pointing out that telling young women they should just make sure they opt out of the structural factors that make marriage better protection for us as a cohort isn't very helpful.

Yes MeteorGarden I wholeheartedly agree with you & feel like marriage & having a family go in that order!
Too many examples of the man of woman dying before marriage leaving family financially vulnerable with no rights.

@paul

Totally agree, there have been some awesome, helpful and constructive ‘feminist’ posts on here and that’s exactly the way we should be supporting each other and helping young women to protect themselves (learning by others mistakes).

However there have also been some horrible, shaming, judgmental posts questioning women’s independence strength for wanting to get married/ look after children. Which is entirely unfair and we’re it the other way around (married mother horribly accusing career mum of being a bad parent for working full time) I would feel just as strongly that was wrong and unhelpful/unfair

I had children before I got married. Then dp got diagnosed with cancer. We did get married, mainly because of that, then a few years later DH died. I must admit I didn't know the financial benefits of getting married, but I'm so glad we did. Otherwise I would have lost half the house to dh's family (yes they would have taken it) I wouldn't have got widows benefit, and DH would have been buried miles away close to his mother, (so the kids wouldn't have been able to visit the grave) as I wouldn't have got a say on that either. I don't think it's fair that you should be married, but whilst this is the situation at the moment, it would be wise for women to consider it.

The bottom line is that every woman should choose the course that's best for her, but it should be an informed choice, made after all the implications have been taken into account. Hopefully these threads help women to make the right decision by arming them with that information.

My partner and I had our first child quite young but knew we never wanted a wedding ( though are not against the idea of a marriage) we have now been together 10 years and have recently had another child together. We are in love and committed to each other just as any husband and wife are. I have taken his name so we are now the insert name here household and as a gesture he recently gifted me a lovely ring set for me to wear. We are happy with our set up, even if other people think we are weird! If both parties are happy then what does it matter if they are legally married or not?

Also, I didn't consider it important when writing first post but reading back maybe it is. I am a homemaker and DP works full time. He financially supports the family, while I keep the household running and take care of the children. Traditional roles maybe but both of us feel happy and fulfilled in our roles. We both consider we have equal rights over the money earnt and equal responsibility over the children when he is home.

We both consider we have equal rights over the money earnt and equal responsibility over the children when he is home.

It's not about what you consider, it's about what your legal and financial position would be if you split up, or if your dp died. I suggest you put feelings and emotions aside and take a cold, hard look at what would happen if your dp died or walked out tomorrow.

Okay, fair enough. Thankfully despite being considered ( it seems) silly for not being married, we are not so silly that we haven't got wills. So despite not having much, what we do have will be left to the other if one of us dies. If we split up then all money is in a joint account so we have equal access and I am the main tenant on our tenancy ( I provided the deposit in full so I am named as the person it returns to should I leave) partner agreed that that's the way it should be not necessarily because I provided it but because I would be the one to stay at the property if we split. Thankfully as things are in the UK at the moment I would have financial support whilst I find a job should I need it.

Excellent, thought provoking post Noqont.

I do hope both you and your DC are coping as well as can be expected. So very sorry for the loss of your DH.

Gingerbiscuit - are you your partner's legal next of kin? Have you legal paperwork to show that? because if you don't, then you aren't. His family are.
It's not a case of you "being silly" - it's a case of knowing in what circumstances you are protected, and when you are not. And, if you are not, what the fall-out of that could be in all eventualities.

Yes we are each other's next of kin but thats really only for if there was an emergency. ( for instance, I would be contacted if DP was admitted to hospital after an accident). The wills we have protect us in every other way.

There isn't an exact legal next of kin in UK law, though if I weren't married I think I'd take the precaution of lodging something with my GP just as added protection. And everyone should have POAs really, married or not. But being able to liaise with medical staff etc if your partner is having treatment or vice versa is one of the problems you're least likely to face as an unmarried person gingerbiscuit.

Like misslingoss, I'd encourage you to view this issue not in terms of how you think of yourselves and your relationship, but how the law does. Do what's most advantageous to you! The rings and surnames are nothing to do with being married really, you don't have to have either if you're married and obviously you know that people who aren't married have them too.

Are you working? Do you know you're not necessarily entitled to the same bereavement benefits as a widow/er would be if one of you dies? Do you know that either of you can change your wills without the other knowing and it's much harder to challenge being disinherited if you're not married?

Not saying any of these are necessarily reasons to get married btw, just that you should be aware of them in making your decision.

Thankyou that's food for thought but we are definitely never getting married so for us it's just about covering ourselves as best that we can. For the moment there is very little of value either of us would inherit if the other died so wills being changed and then harder to contest hasnt been much of a concern but naturally when we enter into a mortgage together there will be alot more considerations to make. Of course the rings and names were just a personal choice we made ( both knowing neither made us more secure legally if we were to split/ one of us died).

@Gingerbiscuit4 this might be helpful, to understand some of the legal differences that you may or may not have already thought about

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/family/living-together-marriage-and-civil-partnership/living-together-and-marriage-legal-differences/

@zsazsajuju for the very last time.. Yes I have acknowledged she said that, as I put it in my last post ? But I put in the full quote in context not just picked out one bit and honed in on that.
I take it you are refusing to answer my original question to you ? I will take that as answer enough. If you do however answer the question, please do just that, don't turn it into a question I never asked or "quote " half a statement or question.
I understand misogyny and I see it in the bucket load on here between women, it makes me sad to think some women are like that. People mean about men being misogynistic... Women are the bloody worst on here

Thank you, thats really informative.

Fair enough ginger, I agree it's a good approach to research the matter as thoroughly as possible. Worth naming each other on any pension schemes you're in too, if you haven't already/enter one in the future. Hopefully you're also working and neither of you is shouldering the full responsibility of family and home stuff.

Not impossible to sever debt ties at all. There are forms to complete etc but no, not impossible. Fwiw this is an instance where NOT being married doesn't protect you from being linked with someone financially.

The society supporting you were you to become sick/disabled would include your partner/husband yes? I'm not talking in a wider sense but if one of a couple becomes sick/disabled then usually the other picks up the slack. Including financially.

Why do you think marriage means giving up your independence? What form does your independence take?

Zsazsa - the op's opinion on protecting oneself isn't the where the outdated misogyny exists! It's in the fact that it's STILL women taking the career and most crucially financial hit of producing children! Which is necessary to keep society working for all of us.

"as they have lovely ideas of a “daddy” type husband giving them lots of lovely things." Errrr what?! That's not why I advise it's better to marry before sacrificing career/finances.

"Marriage can be a financial risk" do you mean relationships can be a financial risk? Because the scenarios you outlined not only just as possible in a cohabiting relationship but potentially more likely.

Delphguelph - thanks and very brave of you to admit that on this thread. I've met friends/acquaintances in real life who've been ADAMANT that it does - even claiming it does in Scotland even if not in England, Wales or Northern Ireland. One even argued another acquaintances wife - who's a family lawyer! (She said she is frequently approached by potential clients who think she can get them their "common law settlement" with them often thinking they have a claim on their ex's home, she had a great story about one who thought they could get their ex PARTNER's children from his previous MARRIAGE disinherited in favour of her children! Bonkers!). People of all ages/backgrounds. Indeed the better educated ones are the ones more certain they're right.

281 is not exactly a tiny sample size.

I HAVE seen threads where op's or other posters have laboured under misconceptions on wills, nok... But the "common law marriage" myth seems to me far more widespread with implications in many areas.

Too many posters nitpicking at the "ring" title - it's a turn of phrase which I'm SURE those posters commenting KNOW which means they're just being disingenuous pedants!

Thumbwitches - thank you. In my case it wasn't just me and dd he changed with ex has changed in so many ways that within 5 years of our split all his old friendships had fallen by the way side and even his own immediate family were barely speaking to or even seeing him. Very odd. And yet I genuinely don't think it was down to her, weirdly she and I are very alike (not just in looks) albeit much younger (cliche or what?!) and I actually get on OK with her and SHE has always and still treats dd well. But yes I've seen with friends relationship breakdowns their ex's - particularly those that then become nrps - who were formerly loving, caring partners/parents become selfish, mean ex's. Bewildering!

"So protect yourselves - by marriage, by legal paperwork, by being the higher earner, by having your own assets, whatever - otherwise you could end up being another one of those "I never thought it could happen to me" stories.

THAT is what the OP is saying." HEAR HEAR!

P3ony the more strident your protests the less I believe them to be genuine. There's a BIG difference between disagreeing with the argument at the core of a debate and trying to take the debate off in a different direction for your own agenda! If you tried that in eg a uni essay you'd be marked down for not sticking to the point!

I consider myself a feminist and most of those who know me would probably use that word fairly early on in their description of me too - but there are different types of feminists with slightly different ideologies and beliefs in how equality should be achieved and how women should act in the meantime. Op is I believe referring to a particular type of feminist who just rants at ANY inequality and seems to think individual (usually poorer more vulnerable women than THEY are) women should cut off their noses for the feminist cause - while refusing to make any such sacrifices themselves!

If you want to make it so it's not NECESSARY for women to marry to protect themselves the main things that need to change are:

Attitudes to women of child bearing age in general.
Employment equality
Pay equality
Pensions equality
Laws regarding nrps responsibility to children from previous relationships (including inheritance laws)

Because then -

Mothers won't need marriage because they'll be self sufficient.

Women who's partners haven't made wills or made them without considering or "cutting off" their partners will be self sufficient

Women who's partners become chronically ill or disabled won't be more vulnerable if unmarried because they will be self sufficient

UNTIL THEN marriage is in many ways not only the best but the ONLY protection women have against being made homeless, of being thrown into serious financial difficulty at one of the worst times of their lives.

Noqont so very sorry for you and your family's loss. The real life instances I know where the women were hugely disadvantaged by being unmarried both involved their partners dying. They both lost their homes to their partners other family. Other issues regarding funeral arrangements, support of the surviving children caused much heartache. What was shocking to me was that when these women's partners were alive, there was no animosity, no tension between the women and their partners relatives. Their appalling behaviour after the partner died came out of the clear blue sky!

Cupofcoffeetime
"If both parties are happy then what does it matter if they are legally married or not?" Because the problems don't arise when everything is running smoothly, they arise when the shit hits the fan! As thumbwitches, me, bowing and several others can attest to - THAT is when you find out what people will really sink to! Be that ex partners, their parents, their children... And you CANNOT always predict how bad it can get. My ex showed NO signs of being a potential deadbeat dad, his father wasn't, he wasn't close friends with anyone like that, he never even threatened such things during arguments! Yet the transformation was almost instantaneous! Within days he refused to communicate, emptied and froze the JOINT bank account (into which the CB and tax credits were paid) without telling me. The first I knew was the cliche of being in the supermarket and my debit card being declined! I had no other money or source of income or even a bank account!

"We both consider we have equal rights over the money earnt and equal responsibility over the children when he is home." The problem is LEGALLY you have no rights over the money at all. If he died, then your not being married means potentially that it's easier for his other - legally recognised - relatives to challenge the will. I've seen it happen. Joint account - read above what my ex did! And both in real life and on here this is a common action.

"Thankfully as things are in the UK at the moment I would have financial support whilst I find a job should I need it." If you mean benefits, it takes several WEEKS for initial claims to be processed, if you're in a UC area that can easily be months.

Not having your own separate bank account is also a pita if you find yourself frozen out of the joint account. Plus useful to have more than one account in the event of system failures etc

Thank you Rafflesway and Graphista ♥️

This thread is full of useful information hopefully it will lead to more people making informed decisions rather than drifting into situations and then finding ourselves in the shit or at risk.

There are a couple of threads started off the back of this with people speaking to their DPs about some of the issues raised and so for that OP I'd count this a great AIBU.

If it's getting people checking where they stand, having conversations, becoming better informed that's amazing!

Mnhq - nomination for classics on account of usefulness, can I also ask if mnhq would consider this suitable possible campaign? Destroy the myth of "common law marriage"? There's been several relevant court cases recently too.