Op - totally agree. Especially if they then also decide to reduce work to part time or become sahm.
Nothing wrong with making those decisions but there seem FAR too many women making these decisions WITHOUT FULL KNOWLEDGE OF THE FACTS
Far too much misinformation about "common law marriage" (doesn't exist in uk law), rights to property or indeed any assets after a split if cohabiting, where they stand financially if their partner dies (this possibility is ALWAYS almost ignored on these threads yet it's the one that causes the most difficulty in real life).
Getting married just makes it much clearer legally and far easier to deal with practicalities in the event of a separation, serious illness/disability or death
There are more and more threads being posted by women especially mothers, who are discovering TOO LATE that they made themselves extremely vulnerable financially.
Particularly frustrating when it turns out they're ltr no 2/3/4, their soon to be ex partner didn't treat previous ex's nor any children from previous relationships well, yet the op is surprised he's acting EXACTLY THE SAME with them!
No! If you get together with a man and he's treated his ex like shit, doesn't pay cm (or pays a paltry amount/fiddles the figures), isn't an active parent WHY ON EARTH would you think he'll treat you and any DC you have with him differently?! He's still exactly the same person AND he's got away with before!
I post on these threads and usually give the 2 real life examples I know of where it was the partner died and the surviving partners (including 2 young DC in one case) were utterly screwed, inc losing their homes that they had contributed to (informally) financially.
I'm also a divorcee and while ideally couples don't split and if they do behave reasonably in the real world, having full legal protection DOES make things MUCH easier to sort out in a fair way.
Troodledo - I do think it's out of order the govt treats cohabiting couples "as if they are married" only when it suits them. The appalling situation with UC is a prime case in point and particularly traps abused women.
"Why can there not be a deaf to which kicks in after two years cohabiting?" - because who decides the start date? The end date? Where's the evidence? The witnesses? What if a lodger tries to claim the rights of a cohabitee, how would you prove they were just a lodger?
"IMHO the law should be changed to protect unmarried women, especially mothers, so that they are not left with nothing when relationships end. Just like if they'd been married." No. Several recent threads on this, FAR too problematic to essentially force people into marriage by behaviour rather than by fully consenting and agreeing.
OliveBranchManager - sorry, but those aren't mad hours, plenty of single parents manage them (I did), it was your partners unwillingness to be an equal parent that was the issue BUT did you not discuss such practicalities BEFORE ttc?
I agree with you on free childcare though, those that argue against this are usually male, conservative and hypocritically moralistic.
MaryBoBary - are you still working FT? Do you/DC have a legal claim to half the family home? Being married changes a LOT in terms of not only if you split but if either becomes sick/disabled or dies. As for "can't afford it" at least you admit you mean "how we want to" because it doesn't have to be expensive. It's certainly cheaper than having DC!
"And op can I ask as a happily married wife why are you hanging around on the relationship board. I'd only go there if I had relationship problems,which as a longterm unmarried I don't." What an utterly ridiculous and unnecessary dig there! If anything I would think happily married/cohabiting people are the BEST ones to give advice to those struggling because they ARE getting it right! I'm single and have been for 15 years, am I not allowed to post on there either? 🤔
As for the spurious arguments of "men if they're sahp are vulnerable too" "just make sure you've saved enough first" are ignoring biology, the fact it's Still FAR easier for a man to get work and to get well paid work - even after a break, they don't have to take time off for birth/recovery, the fact that the majority of the population simply can't afford to save enough to cover every eventuality - it would require as a pp said £10,000's if not more ESPECIALLY when including homes and pensions!
As is citing divorce rates - because we don't actually know the rate of separation among cohabiting couples.
The fact is it is very much young working class women who are most vulnerable to the issues we're discussing here. I'm SURE I'll get a lot disagreeing but it's true.
"Poor wording can make a big difference between what you potentially mean and how it's actually coming across." Actually I think it's tiptoeing around trying not to offend is what's CAUSED the problem. Absolutely grand that "unwed mum's" are less stigmatised (and note unwed fathers never really were!) BUT it's led to a situation where women are falsely thinking that living with a man confers rights, that there's true support for single parents (still a LONG way from that!) either socially or financially, that men are being properly held to their responsibilities to their children (just talk to me and MANY others who've experienced the reality of csa/cms), that it's "easy" to be a single mum or at least much easier than it was. It's a bit better but there's still a VERY long way to go. Pussyfooting over the language/tone doesn't do the women (or children) in these situations any favours whatsoever. Let's instead have honesty, clarity and plain speaking.
"WTF happened to getting married for LOVE and creating your own financial security?" The problem with that is that it's only very recently that marriage was "re-branded" as being anything to do with love. Historically it was about merging successful families for financial or even political reasons, ensuring/protecting lines of inheritance, making disputes over property and other assets easier to legislate/administrate. It was very rarely for romantic love. As for "creating your own financial security" this, as I've already said and others alluded to, mainly affects young (fertile) working class women - they don't have the resources to create their own financial security. Even successful middle class types aren't earning good money generally until well into their 30's when fertility is seriously declining so even middle class and higher women are bound by biology.
As for marrying selfish fuckwits, certainly in the first ltr for said fuckwit it's entirely possible they hide their fuckwittery AT LEAST until you're pregnant if not until you're actually separating (or it's the cause for separating as in my case). I met my ex we were both 19, I was his first ltr. No obvious red flags, seemed like a perfectly reasonable, sensible guy. It was only after I had dd that he stepped up what I now know to have been pressure/gaslighting re not wanting me to go back to work "you won't earn enough to make it worth your while", "you'll be knackered all the time", "you'll miss dd too much" etc, stopped doing housework expecting me to do it all, the final death knell was him cheating. His own family were utterly shocked it was SO out of character, I had HIS friends since childhood calling me saying they didn't recognise the person he's turned into.
I agree, I read some of the threads and think "well wtf did you expect? You were the ow, so you KNEW he was capable of lying and cheating, you supported him when he was screwing over the ex AND the kids and NOW you think you have the right to moan he's doing the exact same to you?!" So yea sometimes it's like "oh come on! It's hardly a fucking surprise!!"
"When it goes wrong and there are unmarried women with children are those much-reviled single mothers and their children going to be the focus of all the stigma again?" It never completely left. When I split from my ex and visited the local council the female (barely 18 I'd guess) counter assistant, looked me up and down, took the form I was there to hand in (single occupancy discount) and actually said "urgh another one of them single mums" to her colleague. Didn't even address me! This was only 15 years ago and I've certainly continued to encounter similar attitudes ever since. It's STILL a stigma to be a single mum. But it's no longer properly acknowledged that it is.
"I'm a bit suspicious of people urging we just give it up." Arranging ones own life according to the current laws and political circumstances is NOT giving up! They're not mutually exclusive. UNTIL we have better laws regarding equality ESPECIALLY for mothers, women - especially those who don't have the luxury of coming from a background where they're better able to support themselves & DC - need to be pragmatic and protect themselves. That doesn't stop us from fighting for greater equality.
I DO think a BIG step in the right direction would be massively improving the legislation on child maintenance. It's currently woefully inadequate both in amounts AND enforcement. And yes cynically part of the reason this would improve things for women is because then men would begin to PROPERLY understand what a responsibility parenthood is. Make it so it's in their interests to properly consider the consequences of unprotected sex. Stop letting them effectively "divorce" their kids! I absolutely agree that men need to start being held accountable for their actions, their share of responsibility for children and the effect having DC has on the mother of their children. It's FAR too socially acceptable to have multiple children to multiple women and pay no cm! The govt even sanctions a man having multiple children by multiple mothers in the tax credit 2 child limit!
"Don’t agree with this. If you protect women you would also need to protect men/dads. you’d get a lot more dads wanting to be the main carer" and? Why shouldn't men who are equally vulnerable also be protected? Lp dads are rare but they do exist and they are JUST as screwed as women are in the current set up. I have personal knowledge of a few cases where there this has been an issue. Arguably it's worse for them as they're seen as being "greedy" for expecting nrp mothers to pay maintenance. The sex of the nrp is irrelevant. Highly unlikely it'll make lazy, selfish types want to be primary carers they haven't the emotional capacity for it.
Ons - both responsible for any resulting child. Frankly given the current generation likely to conceive this way, it would maybe make the guys stop the unsafe sex crap! Great that HIV, hepatitis etc have much more effective treatments but speaking as someone who reached age of consent at the height of the AIDS scare, I find it utterly baffling how complacent younger generations are regarding safer sex.
"Yes, it's possible to get all the legal protections in place without getting married" it's really not.
"they can’t afford the wedding they want." Yes people need to stop focusing on the wedding day, and refocus on real life, not an IG ideology!
"where the DP has had two promotions while she’s been looking after the kids but she’s not on the mortgage because it was easier if he applied on his own." Exactly! It's those women we need to reach.
At this point in reading the thread I also notice nobody has mentioned that women's wages being lower is usually WHY they are the ones who it seems it makes more sense for them to reduce hours, stop working, because the males often higher wage is needed by the family.
"It should be the norm to have a conversation about where your relationship is going early doors!!" Definitely! I did, marriage didn't work out but if we'd not been married I really would have been utterly screwed!
I DO condemn men who don't pay the mother of their children the respect of at least discussing marriage and being willing to marry. They SHOULD respect her enough to do this. Men who try to (or worse succeed in) weasel out of their responsibilities are not men I am interested in being friends or anything more with. One friend was being an arse in the initial aftermath of split from his DC's mother. Bro and I both said to him he was being a selfish twat and needed to play fair. He sulked for a bit, then agreed he was being a twat, spoke to the ex and they reached an agreement. Other friends who've bitched about their ex or boasted about how they're avoiding paying "too much" cm I've dropped. It NEEDS to become COMPLETELY socially unacceptable to behave this way.
"When you say marriage doesn't matter, unconsciously or otherwise you're endorsing the behaviour of absent fathers and deadbeat dads." HEAR HEAR!
How? Because truth is it's easier to become a deadbeat dad when you never married the mother.
Mistressdeecee I'm also an "older" poster at 46 and I too have seen very often men who've done the "it's just a piece of paper" crap only to quickly marry and have DC with younger model.