To think that women should stop starting families before they get the ring?

[MeteorGarden]

Ok so hear me out.

I’ve read a few threads now from women who have got themselves into the same difficult situation and judging by hundreds of comments, they are seriously not alone!

They desperately want to marry DP who ‘always said he would’ But now (a few children/ years later) has declared he has no intention of marrying them.

It follows the same pattern, OP wanted to marry early on and DP was open to it but didn’t actually pop the question. OP didn’t force the issue (god forbid she be labelled ‘pushy’ or ‘crazy’) and instead started a family with DP (OP seemed under the delusion that having his children would make him propose).

Why!??
A) Would anyone ‘start a family’ with a man who isn’t proposing to you? If he’s open to it why isn’t he doing it?
B) Is having children becoming just an alternative to getting the ring/ security you want?
C) Would anyone think having his children will make him propose? If you have the kids without a ring it’s fair for him to assume you’re happy enough with the current situation!
D) are so many women put off flatly asking for what they want? It’s terribly backward to just quietly have his children and keep his home in the hope that one day you’ll be ‘rewarded’ you with a proposal! We’re living in a society where you can carry his children but feel uncomfortable asking WHEN he’s going to propose and pushing the issue?!?!

The stories I’ve read are horribly deflating and I empathise with their explanations of frustration and humiliation but wonder if perhaps it could have all been avoided?

We have so much more freedom and independence than our grandmothers, but we’re expected to pretend we don’t care about marriage or kids for the first year of dating so as ‘not to scare a man away’!! WtF?

I wouldn’t ever plan a family with any man I wasn’t married to. It was spelt out to me that the time to lock down my chosen relationship was BEFORE I had children or made irreversible sacrifices!

This kind of thinking seems to instil fury in a lot of modern women but why? Taking the more ‘modern’ approach really doesn’t seem to be working out very well for alot of women so would a bit more tradition In our approach to getting the ring really be that bad?

Maybe if women banded together and made ‘getting the ring’ more socially acceptable we’d be able to push the point and get answers before wasting years with a guy and learning the hard way! Right now it feels men have more power over the marriage process than they really should!

* This applies only to women who ‘want’ to marry but aren’t getting the ring. Not those who don’t want to marry!

Because I knew I could look after my children if he was there or not - my life my choice

I only got married two years ago when our children were 9 and 4. When we had our eldest we were in two professional jobs I was in the civil service fast track scheme in central government post and my husband was nearly a fully qualified Architect but due to the fierce nature of our love for each other we spontaneously chose to have our first child - compared to our peers we were young to have a baby- mid to late 20's. We were going to get married and then for us the baby arrived and the priority was using the money for deposit on house, paying for my husband to finish his architectural qualifications. It all became very sensible and grown up. I honestly think marriage is something that is a prekids thing as you're motivated by your passion for each other not just a 'contract'. Needless to say we did get married as I did not feel secure in my position at that time. However, things have changed now and there are fewer SAHMs than there were as the double income is needed.

I have no interest in having children with someone who doesn’t want to form an economic partnership. I’d rather have children without another legal parent in that scenario.

I don't think either of us thought of it as an 'economic partnership', we met, were wildly in love with each other and had a baby within two years of getting together. Admittedly, we were niave. I think people in their 20's now are lot more serious and know what they want. I am 40 and we didn't live our life like that and nor didn't alot of our contemporaries.

Did not didn't.

It has been interesting to take a break from this post and read the paper and reports on proposed changes to divorce and martial laws. Although the highlighted point is the need for no fault divorce without the waitin period, the article I read pointed out the need for reform in relation to;

• extending entitlement for civil partnership to heterosexual couples
• legal provision for pre and post nuptial agreements
• making clear break financial settlements the norm
• addressing the inequality between the rights of cohabiting couples and married couples in relation to state recognition, this can’t be avoided
• protections for cohabiting couples.

So maybe reform is on its way. Of course, pro marriage(in its current form) and religious lobbyists will be opposed to a lot of this. However it seems to me we are creeping towards it anyway through legislation and case law. Far better for it to be all out in the open.

IMO, this will impact on divorce settlements in England and Wales. Expect things to be more inline with Scotland. Pre and post nuptial agreements will be recognised allowing people to protect pre existing wealth and income differentials. This would have an enormous impact on parents and their decisions on career sacrifice, particularly women. But, it puts it all out there in the open and the onus is on the reluctant sharer to take action not the vulnerable one to hint at marriage.

If your wife / husband or partner asks for a prenup then you know score. You should expect wealth and income to be shared in the relationship but not beyond it or a clean break agreement. So be prepared to have your own income and pension for life. Men will need to plan for settlements when agreeing to their wife’s career sacrifice etc.

Part of me favours this but I honestly think that the women who fall victim to the current system will still be played in the future. Their desires to have children and inherent reluctance to assert their needs won’t change. The former shouldn’t but we need to teach women to be more assertive and to have higher expectations, than relying on a ring and a proposal. Tbh I think the ring can be just a trap for some women when they should be controlling their own lives and future not relying on a man.

I understand why a lot of wives who have sacrificed careers or want to would be aghast at these proposals. You should be ! but these changes are creeping in so be prepared. Don’t rely on legislation not changing because it might do. Lobby or reevaluate your options and raise your daughters expectations.

Can we acknowledge that some women want to get married, have children and stay at home, and that doesn’t make them less or inferior to women who work full time? Or vice versa.

This post was about society creating a marriage stigma, that women shouldn’t ask for it or insist upon it. About women accepting less than they want/ deserve because they’re labelled with unpleasant names (by men) if they push the point, or chastised (by angry feminists) If they don’t want to be completely independent from their partner or put their kids in nursery to work full time.

An appropriate response to ‘I want to get married but my DP doesn’t’ IS NOT ‘ well you shouldn’t want to get married anyway because of XYZ!!! And if that’s your response you are part of the problem that these women are facing, you’re building the stigma of wanting to get married and making it seem stupid, pointless, weak or clingy. Women face those feelings enough maybe we shouldn’t inflict them upon each other too!!

If you don’t want to get married fine, good for you! I put on the OP that this wasn’t about that.

I’m pretty new to mumsnet but so far I see a massive amount of unmarried women complaining about how ‘constantly superior’ married women are on MN, whilst relentlessly slagging off married women. I’ve seen far less married people being superior than unmarried being bitchy 🤔

My partner doesn’t want to get married. I love him and we are expecting a baby soon. The mortgage is in my name solely (he pays the bills), I have my own savings and I could comfortably support this child and pay the mortgage if we split up.

I resent the implication that unmarried women are too naive and stupid to think about this sort of thing before having children - lots of us aren’t!

The warning should be put out there though even if it hurts the ego of women who don't need the warning!!!

I think, going back the aibu... Well, yes... Yes you are. Positively Victorian in your stance.... I'm assuming here that Gilead would be your idea of utopia then, where all we fools and harlots get our comeuppance. Really.... Honestly... Just so divisive and needlessly so. Get married if you want, go to church every weekend if you want, do crazy mad wild stuff in your bedroom if you want, but do NOT tell me how I live my life is "unreasonable" . Secondly... I go back to my point... All this bull about protecting income etc etc wouldn't matter if women were seen in their own right as equal partners from day one regardless. But we are still playing a game that was invented by men for the benefit of men... And squabbling over the crumbs from the table. Its utter bull. Don't want to get married? Fine. Do? Fine. Protect yourself, of course, but don't puritanically object to others living their lives differently to you.

I didnt want to get married and I ended up a single mother twice by my choice. I was fine with it. Love my children just the way they are so although I can't see now what on earth I saw in their arsehole fathers I'm pretty happy I went there 😁 not all single motherhood ends badly. Luckily for DH I did say yes to him but when the other two asked I declined saying I didn't want to get married. Which I honestly believed at the time but now I think my sub sonscious knew something I didn't. It would have been much messier if I'd have been married.

@darkstar it doesn’t matter if you can afford to pay the mortgage - the house is in his name and you have no entitlement to any equity - you’d have to move out probably with kids

Things get much harder when you have kids. More work, more expense. That’s why marriage matters - protect yourself

Omg so many her have not rtft and have no idea of the protection of marriage

No Maids the house is in Dark's name,he'd have to move out. You don't need to get married to protect yourself from that.

This post was about society creating a marriage stigma, that women shouldn’t ask for it or insist upon it.

I kind of agree with you OP.....

I don't want to live in a world where women feel like they have to ask for or "insist" on marriage purely for financial security..... I want to live in a world where women are able to take charge of their own financial security with or without a man and then marriage then becomes a free choice for both the women and the men.

Yes, absolutely @FrangipaniBlue... But that wasn't the aibu.... I guess... Feel free to think whatever you want... But don't ask that question, which is massively divisive and sort of implicates that women who aren't married are ignorant or stupid or deserve what's coming to them. It really isn't in the spirit of getting through the day, which if you have kids, regardless of your marital status, is all you want to do! Basically... Marriage isn't the only way that making a family happens and a ring does not make a family "deserved" ... I guess.

I got married and will be significantly worse off financially if we were to split as I significantly out earn my DH and have put inheritance into our joint house.

I have no intention of splitting up but you do make quite a few assumptions principally that women are incapable of supporting themselves/their children.

🍿 only here for the comments. This is going be better than X-factor.

FWIW - we were traditional and wouldn’t start a family without being married, but I couldn’t care less about how someone else desired to live their life - what’s it to you OP? Maybe concentrate on your own life - the lives of the rest of the world really doesn’t concern you.

I agree with you OP, I'd never had considered staying with a man who didn't want marriage after few months. And I certainly would NEVER have had kids with him without being married.

Marriage isn't security it could end just as well. What it means is hitch up with a avaliable sucker so you get to keep shit when you split.

I never thought I'd see the day people became marriage smug.

I think having kids together is the biggest commitment, if you can't commit to marriage, I'd be worried.

Personally, I’d want to be married before having children (I was married nearly 10 years before DS arrived). DH wasn’t ever that bothered about marriage but he knew that I was, so he married me as he loves me. It’s totally up to the individual, but I just think sometimes it’s the woman who ends up with the raw deal.

The key factor, really, is acknowledging that raising children is work and that the person doing that work needs an income. Marriage doesn't necessarily provide that - a truly selfish man can hide or dispose of his assets when he decides that his partner and any children are no longer of interest to him and he wants to walk away.
All the problems the OP is talking about come from the idea that women are basically property - a combination of breeding animal and servant - and therefore the man who owns one is responsible for her upkeep and the children, so she'd better make herself sufficiently appealing...

A) Yes and I did. He would propose if I told him I wanted to but neither of us are fussed and there are tax reasons not to do it.
B) Er no. I had a child because I wanted a child with a man I thought would be an excellent father and we have a lovely family.
C) I have no idea. I wouldn’t have children just to get married, do people do this? As above, I am happy in my relationship and wanted children. A proposal doesn’t come into it.
D) I agree, but marriage isn’t what I overly want anyway and I’m not the only one. I would ask if I wanted it. I don’t.
Most proposals and most wedding ceremonies are pretty horrendously sexist anyway.

Maybe concentrate on your own life - the lives of the rest of the world really doesn’t concern you.
But it could do if people start lobbying to force material style rights on people who opt to cohabit instead of marry.

Personally I think people should be free to marry or not depending on what suits them, their family and their circumstances. I don't believe at all that the law should be changed to create de facto material rights on cohabitees because it removes their right to keep out of a legal contract. People should be free to choose whether to enter a legal agreement to offer protection for a spouse who sacrifices for the family, shared assets etc.

Some women make themselves financially vulnerable, claim they don't want or need marriage, pay into a house in their partners name but aren't on the deeds, talk about how they don't need to emotionally blackmail him into marrying them, it's just a piece of paper, I dont believe in marriage, etc etc and then when it ends and they get nothing out of the relationship suddenly decide they want the laws changing.

Why should the law step in and remove choices for the majority because some women don't take responsibility for their own financial security (either by ensuring they keep financial independence or by marrying before making substantial sacrifices for the family unit)?