to think that would be teachers need to have good Maths and English

[therealimposter]

Woe betide me that I make a grammatical error in this post.

Somebody was telling me that they would like to train as a teacher but they have failed the essential Maths and English skills tests three times each. They want to teach Science in a Secondary School. I cant help but think that they should find another job that they want to do as their Maths and English just isn't up to scratch.

YANBU

Until Feb this year there was a 'lockout' for two years if you failed three times, but it's been changed now.

I could almost understand if they wanted to teach something far removed from Maths and English, Art or DT maybe, but honestly I think even then teachers really should have the minimum standards.

But Science? No. The skills tests are not that difficult and I think you actually need a much higher standard to teach Science.

Context: I'm a newly qualified Science teacher who sailed through the skills tests but finds the Maths content of some of the Physics bits quite challenging to teach.

Maths features heavily in the science curriculum and so they need to be competent.

I could almost understand if they wanted to teach something far removed from Maths and English, Art or DT maybe, but honestly I think even then teachers really should have the minimum standards.

Oh sweet Jesus, there really is no fucking hope when posters have no idea of the subject knowledge requirements of the curriculum.

Context: I'm a newly qualified Science teacher who sailed through the skills tests but finds the Maths content of some of the Physics bits quite challenging to teach.

How the fuck did you ever pass the cross-curricular knowledge with statements like this.

they want to teach science and can't pass basic tests for maths?

The mind boggles

I agree. The key skills tests aren’t particularly difficult either. I teach math and granted, I’d be unable to teach English, but I have a good grasp of it.

The poster said challenging TO TEACH not that they personally found the maths difficult. Big difference!

English, yes, as I can’t think of any subject where basic English skills aren’t needed, for communication / marking purposes if nothing else.

Maths I’m in two minds about. I suppose it depends on how basic the tests are - I think it would be slightly unfair to prevent someone from being a French teacher, for instance, because they can’t calculate the volume of a cylinder.

I found the skills test really difficult. I had to study maths with a tutor for 3 months before I felt confident enough to take the test. I passed both first time but they weren't easy.
Having secure subject knowledge is important but not the only aspect to teaching.
You're being unreasonable op. I worked with some brilliant minds but if you can't control a classroom to get the content across, what does it matter?

I do not think that senior teachers should need a GCSE in maths and English. I have a BA and a MA and have worked as a TA for 4 years, I have excellent skills and incredible feedback from my supervisions etc . I am highly valued by my employer, I take classes in my specialist subject. They have asked me time and time again to do my training with them, but I can't pass my maths GCSE. Right now I am doing a part time PhD in my subject and yet can't bloody teach it! It is totally and utterly ridiculous.

The numeracy skills tests test the Maths skills needed for being a teacher, rather than Maths curriculum content. I coached someone recently for it and had to teach them how to interpret a box plot, because they hadn't learned it at school (neither did I).

I know someone whos failed the maths more than 20 times and is still saying shes good at maths its just an unfair and unnecessary test.

My understanding is that literacy and numeracy have to be embedded in every subject according to Ofsted, how can you do that if you dont have a basic level of numeracy skill?

I did the practice tests a few weeks ago, the tests really aren't hard.

I think it would be slightly unfair to prevent someone from being a French teacher, for instance, because they can’t calculate the volume of a cylinder.

It's less than useful for French at Secondary, I agree. However I'd hope that a science teacher would have good enough maths to do that.

You're being unreasonable op. I worked with some brilliant minds but if you can't control a classroom to get the content across, what does it matter?

It matters because what is the point in having perfect control of the classroom and then delivering content that is wrong?

It matters because what is the point in having perfect control of the classroom and then delivering content that is wrong?

You can't have one without the other. You need both. IME strong behaviour management is key to delivering lessons. Ever taught in a classroom before op?

The numeracy part of the teachers' skills tests focuses on using data as this is something that teachers need to do, especially if they become heads of department or similar (or are a one person department).

I agree it's correct that a science teacher needs to pass both skills tests.

Secondary French teacher here. I use English and maths skills to carry out my wider professional duties, such as report writing, letters to parents, calculating progress and working out mock grades, to name a few. As frustrating as the skills tests are, teaching would be stressful and potentially embarrassing for anyone who was unable to pass them.

YANBU

A friend of mine posted a photo of her daughter with a star of the week certificate from her teacher.

She got the award that said

“Well done for been a very helpful member of the class”

Been, I had to re-read incase it was “you have been” nope. Definitely “for been”

Thank goodness she’s a long distance friend and my daughter isn’t in that school as I don’t know what I’d do if a class teacher wrote that on my child’s certificate......

I agree, OP.

I'm a Primary School Teacher and we need to be able to teach maths and English from ages 3-11, plus all the other subjects.

Some of the people I did my teacher training with had shocking mathematical and grammatical knowledge plus no general knowledge whatsoever. The skills tests are terribly easy. I know a fair amount of Primary teachers who have a very poor grasp of the English language and are teaching it to children. It's no wonder attainment is low if this is the standard of teaching.

Being able to actually teach something you understand fully is as important as behaviour management. You can't teach properly if you don't know it yourself.

YANBU How would you even teach Science without good English and Maths?

The skills tests are not that hard, there is no way someone who has failed 3 times should be teaching any subject but especially not a subject like Science which features quite a lot of maths and the ability to write things up. Things like PE, Music and Art below GCSE level might be ok at a push but even then they'd need basic skills.

I could almost understand if they wanted to teach something far removed from Maths and English, Art or DT maybe, but honestly I think even then teachers really should have the minimum standards.

Oh sweet Jesus, there really is no fucking hope when posters have no idea of the subject knowledge requirements of the curriculum.

Ok, maybe I should have said 'further removed' as in further removed than teaching actual Maths or English.

And no, I don't know the ins and outs of every possible subject, apologies to any Art teachers if quadratic equations are on the syllabus and I didn't realise.

Anyway, with unlimited goes it seems the government think it doesn't matter for any subject, so 🤷‍♀️

Context: I'm a newly qualified Science teacher who sailed through the skills tests but finds the Maths content of some of the Physics bits quite challenging to teach.

How the fuck did you ever pass the cross-curricular knowledge with statements like this.

New flash, most teachers don't find all parts of their job piss-easy. I said I find it challenging, not that I can't do it. I assume you're a super Science who teaches all three up to KS4 and your specialism at KS5 brilliantly without breaking a sweat.

I bet you don't even have to think about how to differentiate concepts students find difficult for a range of abilities and needs, I suppose you know it all so well you don't even need to plan, so have bags of time for all the admin and no idea why any teacher is stressed, and I guess you could do that naturally from the day you started. Well done.

Unfortunately there don't seem to be many like you, so they have to take people like me, who do their best and make the grade, but might still need support. That's probably why 'NQT' is a thing. A thing that's now being extended to 2 years, because most people still aren't fully amazing after 1.

Bold fail. Good job I'm not teaching ICT eh?

Ever taught in a classroom before op?

Yes.

@therealimposter

Good for you.

Frlrlrubert

No teacher has ever found teaching easy from the start but many seem happy to make blanket statements about subjects that they clearly have no idea about.

Its interesting that you go for art as you go to response and not DT.

Maybe you should fully respect your colleagues and their subjects before you manage to upset them with your incorrect knowledge of what they require.

@loadthetoad

Good for you.

There's no need for sarcasm, I was asked and I replied.

Have you ever taught in a classroom?