to think that would be teachers need to have good Maths and English

[therealimposter]

Woe betide me that I make a grammatical error in this post.

Somebody was telling me that they would like to train as a teacher but they have failed the essential Maths and English skills tests three times each. They want to teach Science in a Secondary School. I cant help but think that they should find another job that they want to do as their Maths and English just isn't up to scratch.

Since she has an A level in English, I can only assume it was exam technique which was being tested, not basic skills

What does this even mean? It’s a timed online test. It’s not about ‘exam technique’. It’s about twenty minutes long. You don’t even NEED exam technique in a twenty-minute test. You just answer the questions. Most of them are multiple choice anyway - where’s the technique in that?

If she passed A-level English (literature or language?) but can’t pass the basic skills test, I’d be doubting the quality of her A-level pass, not the basic skills English test.

Speaking as a primary school teacher, I really am tired of meeting young entrants to the profession who cannot spell the basic English words that they need to be able to teach and who cannot speak Standard English. No teacher should be asking a child, ‘What was you doing just then?’ Neither should they be writing incorrectly spelled comments in children’s exercise books.

I'm starting a PGCE this year, so obviously did the numeracy and literacy tests this year. I passed both first time, but all the skills involved are things that come easily to me and I don't mind being put under time pressure- the questions in the mental maths section aren't "hard" but the time pressure does cause some people to panic. There may be things people have to learn for the test (e.g. box and whisker plots).

The literacy test isn't like English GCSE at all- it is really a literacy test, so spelling, punctuation, grammar and comprehension. I'd say I passed it more by figuring out the sort of answers they were looking for than necessarily having a perfect grasp of all the skills (although I would say my grammar/punctuation especially is quite good and my spelling is good as long as I concentrate).

I am in contact with some other prospective trainee teachers via a whatsapp group and on another forum and I do find it difficult when people say "I have failed the skills tests x amount of times- what should I do?" because I do think all teachers should have a basic grasp of maths and English. QTS is also universal, so even if you trained for a specific subject at secondary, you could go on to teach primary potentially.

I'm going to be training to teach a science, and all three sciences are now pretty maths heavy at GCSE- including some algebra skills and a range of skills to do with graphs. The numeracy test is quite stats heavy on the non-timed bit, so I'm not sure how well someone would cope with these elements of the course if they find the numeracy test difficult.

I do agree that there are teachers with all different strengths and weaknesses but numeracy and literacy are pretty fundamental skills- and I'm not sure we should devalue teaching as a profession by saying you can be a good teacher without these basic skills.

That said the people who get into teaching should at least have a C at GCSE so it does seem odd to me that so many struggle.

Often it’s a long time since people have done any maths. They’re very rusty. The time for the mental maths sometimes catches them out.

I was thinking of food tech when I wrote DT. All the trainees on our DT PGCE were doing food tech and would have run a mile from a gear or lever. Obviously they still need Maths for calories, timings and temperatures (and probably loads more).

The school I'm in now doesn't do the more physical DT subjects either, I think it's sad but it seems to be dying out round here. But again, I'd imagine you can get by with a lower level of English skills (while still being competent!) than to teach English?

I actually think Science is one where other than the massive vocabulary the English skills required aren't too onerous, command words for exams and being clear and concise is needed. There aren't any SPAG marks at GCSE on our exam board.

I think different subjects do need different levels of maths and English, even if I agree that they all require a good level.

@changedu5ername you can get extra time and other adaptations if you have dyslexia or other disabilities. I am aware of people with dyslexia and those who are EAL who have passed the tests.

Re English grads/ English A-level students who have failed the test, it would probably be possible to achieve these and still be a poor speller. If you did very badly on the spelling section, you'd probably fail the whole thing. The punctuation test is also a bit of an "attention to detail" style test, which is arguably still an important skill for a teacher.

The Professional Skills Test for Literacy may not be so easy if the candidate has dyslexia or if English is not the candidate's first language.

It might not be no but you can get extra time - I think it's 25% - if you have something like dyslexia. If English isn't their first language then it still needs to be good enough to pass - I wouldn't try and teach in Germany as I know I'd fail a language test unless all I had to teach was ordering coffee, cakes and beers.

I had to do the IT skills test (a million years ago) despite my degree being business and IT completely missing the point of the thread

The thought that "I couldalmostunderstand if they wanted to teach Art or DT maybe" from a teacher shows remarkable innocence of what the expectation of any teacher

Frlrlrubert - maybe comment on other subjects when you gather some experience

sta.education.gov.uk/professional-skills-tests/access-arrangements Here are the access arrangements available for people with disabilities who want to take the tests, in case anyone is interested.

@Frlrlrubert It's my understanding that pupils can now lose marks in science if key terms are spelt incorrectly. Equally, with written English, do you not think it's a good idea that all teachers set a good example? If Mr Smith uses bad grammar in his worksheets, students may pick up on this and thing it's standard English. Comprehension IMO is also an important skill in STEM.

It really is a literacy test- it's not testing higher level English skills.

Literacy is really important in Science. Understanding a question is about more than knowing command words, and expressing yourself clearly might not gain you SPAG marks, but it helps you "say the science". I think you will learn that this year as you mark exams.

I had to do the IT skills test (a million years ago) despite my degree being business and IT completely missing the point of the thread

There’s no consideration or common sense to it. I’ve got A level maths, a very heavily maths based degree and still had to do the tests. The list annoying thing is not being able to use a proper calculator. The on screen one available doesn’t follow BODMAS rules.

I think it is more worrying that you don’t need to be a qualified teacher to teach in many state schools.

Blimey this has to be one of the first Teacher Should Threads that hasn't been overtaken by Teachers telling other posters (including Teachers) how shit their job is and bladyblah...I'm aware it's start of term and they're all really, really super-busy, but a thread like this usually gets a few Teachers on ML putting us all right.

So I'm assuming that nearly everyone agrees with you O :).

Want a lozenge, Nanny0gg?

HateIsNotGood
I'd be bloody concerned if any teacher felt that basic literacy/numeracy were optional skills if I'm honest.

I do know a few who seem to think the maths requirement is stupid. Whilst I wouldn't wish to be unkind, they arent the strongest members of staff I have worked with and tend to be the ones who struggle to calculate basic statistics on their class performance.

^A detailed and coherent explanation is provided with
most of the relevant content, which demonstrates a comprehensive
understanding of the human circulatory system. The response
makes logical links between content points^

The above is taken from the mark scheme for a 6 mark question at Biology GCSE- they're obviously not English lit level skills but they are English based skills.

At A-level, in Biology, pupils are basically expected to write a scientific essay.

i think GCSE Maths to teach up to GCSE Science, but don't think it should be essential to teach Art, Music, P.E, Drama or any other unrelated subject.

Weirdly, in my last school, the PE teachers taught Maths.

My school won’t let students take Physics A level unless they achieved a very good Maths GCSE grade.

The Head of English and I red-penned a document given to us by Senior management: apostrophes in plurals etc. She told me 20% of the English Language GCSE is SPaG.

I'm going to put it one last time.

I agree all teachers need good standards of maths and English. I agree they should pass the skills tests.

I think some subjects need great maths and/or English skills - I think struggling with the skills tests if you want to teach these is problematic.

LadyLance

See where I wrote other than the massive vocabulary? I include spelling key words in that.

TheFallenMadonna

I literally wrote that being clear and concise is important.

The OP was about whether someone could teach science if they are struggling to pass skills tests, I said no, all teachers need the basics, but for science you especially need good maths. I shouldn't have mentioned other subjects.

I'm trying to make distinctions between good and great, but it seems like people are reading it as shit and great.

If people don't think the literacy skills test is a good enough marker for whether you can teach science then I'm sorry, but some of my cohort had scraped that and a C at GCSE English, and struggled with the essays for the course. These teachers have been passed.

Honestly, bad grammar in worksheets and poorly written letters home give me the rage, so does biologists mixing up weight and mass, but there's a teacher shortage and these things are happening. I don't intend to do these things myself!

I hope standards have improved since my DDs were at school. DD1 had to correct her teacher’s spelling in the reception class, when she was 5 years old! The poor woman was even spelling lettuce with an i in it. I used to get my red pen out and correct the school reports sent home.
DD2 had an American teacher of English at secondary school, who crossed out DD2’s sentence of “He jumped off the rock”, and replaced it with “He jumped off of the rock”!
I told that one to the head of department, who was mortified.
It’s very unfair on kids from deprived families, who depend on the teacher alone as their source of literacy and numeracy. They don’t have educated parents who can correct mistakes. No wonder they later struggle to even write a decent application form for a basic job.
Teaching is a noble profession and a vocation - it deserves to have stringent entry requirements so that teachers can command the respect of their pupils.

Frlrlrubert

But again, I'd imagine you can get by with a lower level of English skills

"DT food" have to give essay type answers using descriptive language, whilst using the correct scientific terminology explaining the chemical reactions that occur whist using specific ingredients and how they work together to produce a quality product.

percentages of scaling up products might just be important if just a recipe for two people and having to produce food for a a set number.

Or even calculating the times at which food will be ready to enable a three course meal to be able to be served with no overlap.

Please go and look up what the subject requirements are before you start trying to pass on any knowledge of them.

Maisy

You could have been talking about me with not having a clue about class stats.
My Line manager, or HOD was always happy to explain them to me, it didn't take them long.
I did help to change the lives of some kids who had been failed though.
Unfortunately, I couldn't keep my job because the lack of bloody Maths came up again.
My subject was Travel, Tourism and generic units that covered service sector industries. I taught level 2- 4 (FE)
I have a level 2 Maths and English, not a GCSE to my name, I'd still be teaching if not for maths.

@Frlrlrubert but one section of the literacy test is spelling and you might fail the test on this alone if you were an especially poor speller.

It's not an English Language GCSE style paper.

It's a spelling test, followed by a section where you have to spot 15 punctuation mistakes in a written passage, followed by multiple choice grammar questions, followed by multiple choice comprehension questions.

You need about 65-70% to pass, so you can make a few mistakes on each section and still pass.

You can genuinely pass without great English skills imo- I would say in order to fail you do need to have poor/weak English skills. I am not sure I would pass an English Lit GCSE paper if I sat one tomorrow (I might if I had a few months to revise) but I am confident I would pass the skills test again tomorrow.

I passed mine first time, but I was worried. Why? The test centre was in a strange city 45 mins away with a one way system that I had never driven through before, and I was exhausted after spending a term working really long hours with a 2 hours plus drive every day. Pretty sure I hardly slept the night before.

Resits are definitely fair enough because you don't sit these tests in isolation, you sit them during a totally knackering year.

Resits are definitely fair enough because you don't sit these tests in isolation, you sit them during a totally knackering year.

Not necessarily, you have to pass them before you start.

Oh and not helped that the uni made such a fuss about taking them early as many people failed, so take them early to allow time to resit... they probably built them up to be more difficult than they were really.