to think that would be teachers need to have good Maths and English

[therealimposter]

Woe betide me that I make a grammatical error in this post.

Somebody was telling me that they would like to train as a teacher but they have failed the essential Maths and English skills tests three times each. They want to teach Science in a Secondary School. I cant help but think that they should find another job that they want to do as their Maths and English just isn't up to scratch.

@therealimposter

I wasn't being sarcastic.
Yes I have taught in a classroom.

I did the essential maths and english tests as part of a mystery shop thing to test the experience at the test centres.

They are VERY straightforward. Primary school level artithmetic, no algebra, trig or anything like that. English similarly simple. Nowhere near GCSE level.

People who can't pass them shouldn't be in teaching.

did you ever pass the cross-curricular knowledge with statements like this.

while I hate to stick up for someone who was so bloody rude.

I think the point she was making was you said you were a newly qualified teacher, but you also said not everyone needed maths and English.
But in your teacher training you should have covered enough of the cross curriculum content to be aware that every subject has written elements and that every teacher, whatever the subject, needs to be able to teach and use basic English grammar. And also that every teacher will need to use basic maths to calculate grades etc

The "maths" is questions like:

3 During a school trip to Germany, each pupil was allowed to exchange £100 into euros for spending money. The exchange rate was €1.06 to the pound.

How many euros did each pupil receive?

4 All 30 pupils in a class took part in a sponsored spell to raise money for charity. The pupils were expected to get an average of 18 spellings correct each. The average amount of sponsorship was 20p for each correct spelling.

How many pounds would the class expect to raise for charity?

They are not expecting you to calculate the area under a curve, know the volume of a cylinder or even work out angles in a triangle. It's adding, subtracting, percentages, averages. If you've got GCSE maths it should be very easy.

I suppose it depends on how basic the tests are - I think it would be slightly unfair to prevent someone from being a French teacher, for instance, because they can’t calculate the volume of a cylinder

It's just a numeracy test no algebra or geometry. If you can't pass after three attempts then maybe teaching isn't for you. That said the people who get into teaching should at least have a C at GCSE so it does seem odd to me that so many struggle.

@PolkerrisBeach

Is there still a timed element to the maths skill test? I sought extra tuition to help me gain confidence answering questions quickly.

When I did the test it was on a computer. I think you get a certain amount of time but can't remember if it's time per question or time for the paper as a whole.

You don't need a perfect score either, just a pass.

Absolutely right OP. Teaching assistants should be numerate and literate too.
My youngest got sent to the head in primary because she corrected her teachers spelling after she was marked wrin a spelling test in year 2. She’s cross still. The teacher had marked sandwich as incorrect and written sandwitch. My daughter pointed out she had marked it improperly and was then sent to head. I was less than pleased.

That's the hard bit I think. Timed and on screen is off putting when people are used to own and paper tests. But there are loads of resources for practising. I helped two people prepare for the numeracy one last year, and they both passed first time, and one of them squeaked a C in GCSE Maths. He will be a great PE teacher mind you.

pen and paper...

I think it would be slightly unfair to prevent someone from being a French teacher, for instance, because they can’t calculate the volume of a cylinder
It's numeracy for teaching, not maths for teaching maths.
As other posters have said, it's fairly basic numeracy for the job.

E.g. look at this spreadsheet. What % of students got a level 4 or above?
You are running a school trip. X y z cost... If 30 students go on the trip, how much will each place cost?

It's hardly rocket science. If you can't work out what a GCSE pass rate is for a class then teaching probably isn't for you.

My daughter passed the maths test yesterday after weeks of panic stricken practise....but narrowly failed the English. Since she has an A level in English, I can only assume it was exam technique which was being tested, not basic skills.

YANBU - we all have to do things we aren't very good at from time to time. If you want to enter a 'profession' that requires minimal skills in English and Maths then you find a way of learning enough to pass that minimal requirement.

If you can't do that, then you need to look for different employment that matches your existing skills.

Even PE teachers and Art teachers need to be able to have basic English, Maths and IT skills in order to do many parts of their job eg tracking, dealing with data, writing reports etc. The tests only require basic skills and are very straightforward. Anyone who can’t pass them after a couple of attempts really shouldn’t be in teaching.

steppemum

Whilst I am grateful for your point I am quite happy to be considered rude to someone that is trying to pass wrong information off as fact and then comes back with a passive aggressive point about quadratics and art.

DT requires knowledge of science and maths. Forces, Ohms law, loads, gears, ratios, scale, areas, volume, costs, material properties, alternative generation of power etc.
And every lesson is an English lesson, all teacher should be correcting spelling and grammar, this is also needed to answer the longer questions about technology in society, environment, carbon foot print, the 5 rs.

And there is more in the curriculum as well. So before teachers start posting about what other subjects need to know they should know something about the subject that they are talking about.

DS teaches languages at secondary level. He prepared for the tests because of the timed element and sailed through first time. They are fairly basic but the timed element can be a bit off putting for those not confident in maths, particularly. He needs basic numeracy to do his job on a day to day basis.

Since she has an A level in English, I can only assume it was exam technique which was being tested, not basic skills.
It could be either.
I've trained trainees who've got 1sts in their degrees and yet can't use the correct their/there/they're (routinely!). In my year training, 3 people struggled to pass the English one.

Hopefully it's just exam technique for your DC though.

@BoneyBackJefferson

I assure you I fully respect my colleagues - I could not teach Art or DT. I didn't say they didn't need Maths and English - after all they'll have them at GCSE. I said I could almost understand being able to do unlimited resits until they have the required standards. Which is now allowed.

I was making a point that science has a lot of Maths, and assuming that someone struggling with the basics would find it difficult to teach more difficult parts of the science curriculum.

@steppemum

Reading back I see I've put it really badly, I agree all teachers need Maths and English. I was trying to say some subjects may be fine with the basics while others would need much more and struggling with the skills tests would be indicative of finding the content too much. I could be very wrong - in which case it's even worse that potential teachers are now allowed unlimited resits if all subjects require much more in depth Maths and English?

As for cross curriculum knowledge - it may be that my training provider was lacking in this area, as we really didn't study the content of other subjects apart from related stuff like maths and geography, and the literacy and numeracy basics.

The skills tests test the Maths you will use, not the Maths you will teach. I think it is assumed that a trainee has the knowledge of the Maths they need to teach as part of their subject.

Oh, and I was so nervous about the timed element of the numeracy test with percentages (I can do them but I was rusty so a bit slow when I did the first practice test), that I didn't notice the on screen calculator and did the whole thing without it. I passed, but I can see why limited resits are a good thing, anyone can have one bad day.

He will be a great PE teacher mind you.

As a PE teacher, Fallen, let’s face it he will probably also end up teaching maths.

Sample literacy skills test here: sta.education.gov.uk/system/resources/W1siZiIsIjIwMTcvMDQvMjUvMTJfNTVfMzRfNTUxX0xpdGVyYWN5X1ByYWN0aWNlX1Rlc3RfMi5wZGYiXV0/Literacy%20Practice%20Test%202.pdf

Sample numeracy skills test: sta.education.gov.uk/system/resources/W1siZiIsIjIwMTUvMDUvMDgvMTJfMTNfNTZfNjA5X051bWVyYWN5X1ByYWN0aWNlX1BCVDJfSmFuXzIwMTUucGRmIl1d/Numeracy%20Practice%20PBT2%20Jan%202015.pdf

Well, he was my TA for a year, so he has had an excellent grounding

I know a fair amount of Primary teachers

My daughter pointed out she had marked it improperly and was then sent to head. I was less than pleased.

I'm assuming the Head backed your daughter?

The Professional Skills Test for Literacy may not be so easy if the candidate has dyslexia or if English is not the candidate's first language.