AIBU not to agree to holiday pay for a self-employed child minder?

[coffeenwine]

Am a bitch? To me: self employed means you sort tax out your self, take ‘more’ pay home and take holidays when you want, have more autonomy on hours etc. but don’t recieve sick/ holiday pay. To get these you need to register as employed? Advice/ experience please...

No no no coffee!!! Don’t agree to it. You are absolutely right. It’s you not she that HMRC will come after for unpaid employers NI not to mention the Pensions Regulator for lack of an auto enrolment pension.

I agree this sounds like a nanny, not a childminder.

It is however usual for childminders to charge for their holidays, their sickness, their children's sickness etc. At least in London.

She's not a childminder, she's a nanny!!

Childminder are self employed and set their own work and payment terms. You then choose to use their services on that basis or look elsewhere for a different childcare provider.

Some don't charge for their holidays but charge you when you are away. I charge half rate for my holidays and charge parents half rate when they are away too. Generally we try to coordinate our holidays so we are all off at the same time.

I take a set number of days holiday each year. Presumably if you don't want to pay when she is on holiday you will be happy for her to take as many days holiday as she chooses at any time of year like other self employed professions would - or does that aspect of her being self employed not appeal to you as much?

It is very unusual for a childminder to do sole care. Childminders care for children from different families in their own home. There are maximum numbers they can care for though according to ages. Sole care is usually Nannying. Nannies are employees and you definitely pay Nannies holiday pay.

Yup, agree, sole charge in your house is not a childminder at all.

A childminder is specifically someone who is registered with the appropriate body (Ofsted/Care Inspectorate), provides care in their own home (or potentially in another place in partnership with another CM), can have multiple clients, dictates their own working hours and contract terms etc. They're self employed.

What you're describing is not a childminder at all. I agree with Georgie on CM's getting a bad name for things that are not them at all.

Pay for actual hours worked, but at a higher rate. She offered a lower rate if I paid weekly but she also didn't charge holidays or sick days (she has had one in five years). I think I pay slightly less but she is brilliant so I don't actually care!

YABU - As a self employed CM she can set her own terms.

Ideally if she’s working solely for you in your home then she should be a nanny and as you say, get holiday pay etc but as a SE person she still needs to cover her bills during holidays, so she would either charge more throughout the rest of the year or charge a retainer fee so that she doesn’t just bugger off and get another job in the holidays and not come back!

Bear in mind, good childcare is one of your most important expenses so if you want to keep her, treat her respectfully and generously. She is doing one of the most important jobs around, which is generally not that well paid.

If you trust her to take good care of your DCs don’t be penny pinching about how much that’s worth to you.

Sole charge in your home is a nanny not a childminder. The vast majority of nanny's are employed. There are a few specific circumstances where a nanny can be self employed such as temporary nannys where they don't do regular hours with any 1 family.

If she wants to be self employed, she needs to apply to HMRC who will tell her if she can be classed as self employed or not depending on the exact nature of her work.

This sums it up nicely:
www.childcare.co.uk/information/nannies-and-self-employment

She’s a nanny.

A childminder runs a business from their own setting and provides a service for clients. She is entitled to set prearranged terms and conditions. While these are technically negotiable, it usually makes best business sense to stick to the same t&c for all clients.

A childminder is a service provider, a nanny is an employee.

Right the whole nanny thing is pretty close to illegal imho

how a nanny can claim to be self employed when all the badges as to employed/self-employed point towards employment is beyond me

I speak as a chartered accountant who has employed a nanny and aupairs in the past.

I am 100% sure that nannies should count as employed and the nanny agencies and nannies themselves are point blank avoiding tax in a way that is illegal.

It's a scandal waiting to happen IMHO. But do pay your nanny using an agency that will deduct PAYE and DO NOT under any circumstances accept the argument that your nanny is self-employed

I might write to HMRC about this, In fact I will because there are nannying agencies out there insisting that their nannies are self-employed

Depends on the contract you sign. It's he same as nursery. You choose to take your child out or. It send them, fees still have to be paid. You shouldn't have to pay if you'd childminder is sick, but otherwise, yes. They get very little money really for the job they do, and if you don't like the contract, go elsewhere. Whilst you're not there, it's not easy juts to pick up another child, so their family are financially effected. Sister of a childminder, and seen how hard she has worked!

It just wasn’t done when I was self employed, I never got sick/ holiday pay you see..... Were you self employed as a CM? It is quite usual for there to be a holiday retainer paid for a CM, whether half pay, a percentage or full pay if they are available and you choose not to use them. As a SE person I’m presuming you set your own prices and also had the option to earn more by doing extra work? If your nanny/CM person is only able to look after your DCs rather than have 6-8 others her pay will need to reflect this.

Your situation has nothing to do with a nursery or the contract signed because you are talking about a nanny and not a childminder. They are totally different.

Agree that she isn't a childminder then, more like a nanny.
It is also common to pay a childminder whilst they are on holiday. One we considered using charges half the amount she usually does whilst on holiday.

Apologies all for using the term childminder- its what she calls herself. Thats why I used it. No offence intened to anyone...
Interesting topic...

Interesting topic...

You mean shit stirring?! Why would you?

I am a nanny employer and also a tax specialist.

She is a nanny.

She would be your employee, not self employed. If you go ahead assuming she’s self employed you can get stung for backdated employers national insurance as a minimum when hmrc investigate

As an employee has all the usual employment rights inc holiday pay and you have all the obligations of an employer.

She would be an employed nanny for you and if you allow her to be s/e and HMRC find out all the penalties are on your side. She may or may not be a s/e childminder other days of the week but for this job she's an employed nanny. To be honest I wouldn't employ her, she sounds a pain already.

Also you would issue the employment contract with your terms specified.

Only discuss gross pay not net pay.

You’ve all confimed my thoughts!! Thanks everyone!! Will get on it in the morning...

she could be self employed if you were not her only client but you say she will be full time for you, and no she can’t be self employed and have holiday pay etc. Sounds like she wants to fiddle her tax.

She sounds like she could be a difficult employee.
I would just find another nanny.

I'm a childminder, I charge full fee when my childminded families are off as the space is available, I charge nothing for my days off/holidays as I'm not providing a service, I find this fair and never had any complaints, I do know a few childminders who expect to be paid while they are off, as a parent I wouldn't be willing to pay this , as it's wanting the benefits of being in employment while being self employed

@Thesearepearls - "I might write to HMRC about this, In fact I will because there are nannying agencies out there insisting that their nannies are self-employed"
Please do... I have been trying to get HMRC to look into this for many years. September 2016 I went to a meeting at The Treasury and spoke to a head of a childcare related department at HMRC who said he would try to put me in touch with someone about the topic of nannies employment status and parents avoiding paying employers NI. Never happened... no contact ever made. I do wonder if HMRC feels it's a non issue, too little to be concerned about. So any headway you make on this topic, please do let me know as maybe they will listen to an accountant.

As a nanny I am employed in my permanent work. I run my own business providing ad-hoc babysitting and respite care. These things are fundamentally different... working for a family in their home, generally fixed days and hours, permanent (or term-time only), is clearly employment. Occasional evening babysitting for many families is clearly not employment... it's providing a service to a client who you hope you will see again but you might not see for many months.

You’ll have to contribute to pension and have all other liabilities and responsibilities if she’s your employee.
I would take her offer and run with it! It’s much better for you and for her.
But you need something in writing from her that she’s a sole trader and works for others. Covers your back.
I work similarly. And my employer saves and I save, and I do some work elsewhere, though the main income is one person.