The tax system in this country is unfair and penalises hard work

[renouncefifty]

I have just finished an assignment working 20 days straight and put in nearly 300 hours. Im exhausted but have a week off to recuperate.

I get overtime for every hour over 8 hours a day I work and overtime for weekends all day. I just realised I've "earnt" £9000 this month which sounds fantastic BUT over £3000 is going in Tax and god knows how much in NI. I dont get a full personal tax allowance as im taxed on my private health insurance premium. I will be lucky to see 5.5k of that money. Oh im in scotland so we pay a penny more per pound in tax also.

I just think sometimes why bother ?

I'm really enjoying thinking about it, nice idea - thanks for bringing it up.

I agree with you actually OP.

The amount of jealousy on this thread is quite something.

Jesus there's some really greedy, entitled people on here. Have you really no sense at all at how utterly privileged you are?

there's some really greedy, entitled people on here. Have you really no sense at all at how utterly privileged you are? is it not more greedy and entitled to think you're owed a bit of someone else's earnings?

is it not more greedy and entitled to think you're owed a bit of someone else's earnings?

Exactly.

not everyone is busy and not everyone does work hard though, i know plenty of people who work very little, and earn accordingly.

Surely we all think we're entitled to other people's earnings, that's the whole point of tax otherwise we'd all be refusing services unless we've paid enough tax or can pay in full for them at the time?

So an 18 year old just in their first job should turn down a heart bypass as that's got to come out of someone else's tax?

I wish I could moan about 'only' getting 5.5k for 20 days work. Working it out, if i did the same hours as you, I would get about 1.5k after tax was took off. I work in a carehome where I am never off my feet and sometimes can barely even get my break. Would seriously love to get 5.5k and moan about it!

"is it not more greedy and entitled to think you're owed a bit of someone else's earnings?"

Poor argument.

The highest earners and the wealthy benefit most from society because society facilitates their earnings and therefore they should contribute the most.

I really object to the narrative that everyone works hard. A minimum wage job is so so so unlikely to have the same demands as a 6 figure job in terms of workload, responsibility, skills, experience. And to say otherwise is just self-indulgent crap.

That's not to say that there are low wage jobs which are gruelling and certainly beyond my capabilities (caring and deep sea fishing come to mind...)

When I was a low earner I had no idea how hard work could actually be, although I worked busy 10 hour shifts and got home exhausted. It's not just about hours but the complexity of the job or the weight of responsibility which comes with it.

The differences between high earners and low earners are a combination of skill, choices, opportunities, enabling environment and work ethic. Sometimes I think people focus on the work ethic bit to avoid looking at the choices they've made (as the rest of the factors are somewhat out of individual control).

Most of the factors are out of individual control, yet high earners tend to focus on hard work and choices in order to justify to themselves why they can hold superior attitudes to others.

Its called survivor bias.

Oh and many people tend to fail to acknowledge the circumstances beyond individual control that facilitated their circumstances.

They pay 51% tax in Denmark - and are proud of their social services, health and education systems. I talked to a Dane recently and she told me they still have to pay a bit for health, e.g. if they go into hospital.

I thought to myself - just think of the health service we could have if we paid just a few % more...

The highest earners and the wealthy benefit most from society because society facilitates their earnings and therefore they should contribute the most.

No, the highest earners pay the taxes that "facilitate" the welfare state that supports the low earners and unemployed. That's the reality - try taking high earners out of the system and see what happens.

what's the opposite of survivor bias? There's certainly an opposite tendency when people feel powerless to retrain or take control of their lives to earn more.

vickyeadie we will be paying more for the same or lesser services due to the ageing population. The debate about the NHS and social care is nowhere near as honest as it needs to be. I've no problem with paying more, Blair had the right of it when he talked about rights and responsibilities though.

Most of the factors are out of individual control, yet high earners tend to focus on hard work and choices in order to justify to themselves why they can hold superior attitudes to others.

Its called survivor bias.

Alternatively:

Most of the factors are well within individual control, yet low earners tend to focus on other people being paid more than them in order to justify to themselves why they can hold inferior attitudes to others.

Its called envy bias.

"That's the reality - try taking high earners out of the system and see what happens."

The high earners can stop paying tax and see what happens to their earnings, they won't stay high for long, and the organisations they work for won't operate.

The high earners benefit the most from society.

Lets be specific about how this works.

No one who "earns" a high level of money does it on their own, they need society to work in order for them to be able to earn.

Not read the whole thread & I agree that there are plenty of high earners who don’t work hard & plenty of intelligent low earners who have not had the same opportunities etc.

However many of the high earners I know do work very hard & certainly feel that they don’t have enough money. I think a lot has to do with house prices/rent & how much things have changed over the last few decades. You see all the time on MNs threads with people saying they struggle on an family income of 80k+ & people scoffing at them. Perhaps struggle is the wrong word but depending upon if & when they are on the housing ladder they are certainly not rolling it.

I think the higher tax band should be raised & there should be more increments over 120k

"Its called envy bias"

Utter bullshit.

In fact the vast majority of the factors which contribute to earning potential or the ability to get good jobs are outside of an individuals locus of control.

We have a ever shrinking working population to tax & it’s likely the government will need to raise taxes. I don’t want to pay more tax, wealth not just income needs to be looked at.

Tax is far too high and I pay loads of it when a lot of women my age take it easy and don't work much (50s). I would like to see a much simpler system with no allowances for things like pension or charity contributions, no free childcare, no complex tax benefits and just a simple one third rate (of a combined tax / NI) whether it is a company's profits, your income, your capital gains aftrer allowing for inflation or whatever and much less state provision all round.

However this Government is a high tax centrist Government so no political party represents my views so I have no chance of changing anything unless I can afford to do less work in which case given current tax levels -they basically take half in tax and then a load more in indirect taxes, I might work less and the state will lose out.

I really object to the narrative that everyone works hard. A minimum wage job is so so so unlikely to have the same demands as a 6 figure job in terms of workload, responsibility, skills, experience. And to say otherwise is just self-indulgent crap.

Darjeel so true.

Many (not all, before someone jumps down my throat) people who don't earn a high wage don't understand what it is like to not ever be able to switch off from work, when on holiday, in the evenings (I used to dream about work deadlines when asleep), just year after year of stress weighs you down.

All minimum wage jobs I did, I clocked off at the end of the day and didn't give it a second thought.

Up thread there was someone talking about working hard and taking months to earn £5.5k, then said they worked 30 hours a week.

30 hours a week is part time so hardly surprising!

With regards to the OP, Yanbu. I find it very frustrating that because my dh is a higher tax band earner we literally get nothing, no child benefit, no childcare vouchers, no 30 hours free childcare. Yet our taxes pay for pretty much everyone else to get those things.

Because of our tax system it's not worth me going back to work with 2 preschool children, but it certainly would be for someone earning the same as I did but who's husband earned less (so got the 30 hours, paid for childcare from pretax income etc).

You can say that household income is fair as the burden of childcare costs should be spread across both salaries but my dh earns what he earns regardless of what I do so why would anyone go back to work to only just break even when all costs are accounted for.

I agree with tax in principle but I don’t believe that I will ever see a state pension or that the NHS will be free when I’m old (in my 30s). It really annoys me that my tax is used to pay landlords (the bigger ones have not being penalised by the new reforms) & make up the shortfall for the likes of Amazon etc.

givemesteel Your dh obvs earns over 100k & obvs will pay a lot in tax & granted take home will be less than 2 parents earning 50k. However I do think the higher rate kicks in far too low & it’s the 50-80k earners who really struggle as opposed to those on 100k.