To ask in your very honest opinion what age do you think it's too late to retrain as a doctor?

[VladmirsPoutine]

Considering you'd then need time to specialise and become a consultant?

Please be as frank as you can because I just want to know. I'm considering this path and I'm early 30s. I'd have to start from scratch basically. Though I have 3 degrees none of them are science related and I've mainly always worked in communications/writing/advertising and that sort of thing.

I’m a doctor.

Go for it! It’s a 5 year course so you’ll be mid-30s when you start working. Seems fine to me. Assuming you work full-time, you’ll be trained in your speciality by your mid-40s. You’ll then have a solid 20 years of working in that field.

By comparison, I’m now 38. Some of my friends are working part-time, taking the long way round. Although they’ve been working since their mid-20s, they won’t be consultants until their 40s anyway.

So it’s fine. Go for it and good luck.

Everyone is saying go for it but OP doesn't appear to like science.

Medicine is science. Like the most science-y science ever. If you dislike science, it is incredibly unlikely that you will a) like medicine or b) be good enough at it to become a consultant psychiatrist

Again I'm questioning why OP wants to do this at all?

Are you me?? I'm 33 and worked in PR/health comms since my early twenties. A BSc and MSc. Was talked out of medicine at school and regret it to this day.

I haven't even read the thread but basically if kids/money don't prohibit you then why the hell not.....

It’s not a matter of just going for it or the OP- it’s a major decision and life commitment that most make at the age of 18- baggage free so no previous degrees, no children, unmarried, no debt which helps. Also fresh from Alevels having done science based subjects- totally different from OP

I'm a GP and whilst I'd love to be able to say "go for it" I'd personally advise you to be very very sure before proceeding.

The lot of a Junior Doctor is incredibly difficult and in many ways hugely destructive. I don't know whether you have family / a partner currently but you could easily end up in a job that is half way across the country (such is the minefield that is junior doctor job allocation). The pay is poor relative to the work and responsibility and rota gaps etc mean that you're frequently working in compromised situations.

GP is so difficult that there is an exodus currently underway (the government needs to recruit 6500 GPs to meet its target of 5000 extra GPs since 1500 further have left!) and Consultant terms and conditions are about to be renegotiated even more unfavourably than presently. A large proportion of the general public will think that they own you and the NHS is the country's biggest abusive employer. There are some lovely bits to the job but they are increasingly being drowned out by the negative stuff.

There is NO WAY that I'd encourage one of my children to become a Doctor. I'm sorry to be negative - but many many Doctors feel like this.

I think you need to do A lot more research on what being a psychiatrist involves, I have an MSc which had an element of pharmacotherapy and it is very complex, and I have a science background.

If you haven't naturally pursued science subjects for A Levels or degrees then being honest, I am sceptical that this path is something that would come naturally to you.

I suggest you do some neuroscience short courses to see if you can handle the complexity of it, even look at Ted talks, Khan academy or YouTube for lectures on pharmacotherapy.

I can see why being a psychiatrist appeals, they are at the top of the hierarchy in mental health services, but there are so many roles within mental health that you could that don't involve a decade of training.

Have you considered being a mental health nurse or IAPT?

Have you considered training to become a psychologist rather than a psychiatrist?

I had a mental health crisis and was suicidal. An excellent psychiatrist saw me once, we had a chat and he prescribed the drugs that undoubtedly saved my life. However, it was the subsequent many sessions with the psychologist that changed my life, that got me to a place where I was not just not in crisis but was also more stronger and self aware and better at coping than I had ever been as a adult. (I had tried “counselling” but they didn’t even touch the edges compared to a proper psychologist)

Honestly? You have three degrees and now want to embark upon lengthy and costly training for something else. Do you just fancy being an eternal student?

Why aren't you building a career with the qualifications you already have?

Psychiatrist career path

If you don't like science then it really really isn't the most sensible career choice...

www.rcpsych.ac.uk/discoverpsychiatry/acareerinpsychiatry.aspx?theme=mobile

(and that doesn't take into account time to do clinical PhD or MD which is increasingly needed for consultant positions)

As a consultant psychiatrist you would see the majority of your patients for 15 minutes every 6 months to review their medication. The is rarely time to discuss social issues or anything particularly deep - it's often just a series of standard questions to tick off all the boxes you need to cov in the time available.

You'd get to ask lots of people if they hear voices, if they're sleeping, if they're eating, if they're washing, if they're socialising, if they hear commands in their head, if they have generic symptom xyz, if they hurt themselves, if they have thoughts of suicide. And then have very little time to do much more than write down their answer, make an empathetic comment or two, and decide whether you feel confident they will refrain from trying to kill themselves before you see them again.

Plus do initial assessments where you ask people to pour out the worst of their life and their pain for you to pick over, and emergency assessments where people are frightened, distressed, and facing the loss of their liberty. You'd potentially be responsible for taking people's freedom away and/or medicating them against their will.

A clinical psychologist on the other hand would see a patient regularly for longer appointments, much closer together, and work with them on improving their life in some specific way. They don't deal with medication (although you'd have to do a PhD to be a clinical psychologist, I don't think you need a PhD to be an assistant psychologist, and you definitely don't to be a psychotherapist).

Occupational therapists also work in mental health teams. You'd get to support people with the way they live their life and how that can improve their mental health.

Social workers also work in mental health teams. You could be somebody's care coordinator, supporting them with practical things, offering emotional support, being their advocate and the member of their care team who really gets to know them well and understand them. You'd see them every few weeks, you'd attend their psychiatrist review appointments with them, support them with other parts of their life.

Community psychiatric nurses can carry out similar roles, although usually more medical focused and often for shorter lengths of time.

AMHPs carry out mental health act assessments with a view on the more social side than just pure medical, and make decisions about whether to detain people and for how long.

These are all community mental health team roles. Then there's inpatient care, assertive outreach, crisis teams (can't say I'd recommend that as a fulfilling choice), camhs, over 65 community teams, crisis houses, physical health psychology teams (supporting people with their mental health who also have serious physical health issues)...

Honestly, it sounds like you've latched onto consultant psychiatrist as the most well known and obvious mental health professional, but I don't think it's the role that's right for you, that suits what you want from it or what you have to offer it (or your natural strengths).

Oh, and I'm not writing that as a psychiatrist hater! I've had a couple of psychiatrists who've had a very positive impact on my life. And countless forgettable others who have had no impact on me whatsoever and were how I described above - very highly qualified prescription dispensers.

It is a very, very medical role. The psychological and social aspects of mental health care are extremely limited as a psychiatrist. And psych meds are a very blunt instrument.

Also, I presume you're already aware that if you go into any MH role at some point you will be required to enthusiastically sell colouring in as an activity to extremely unimpressed adults? But it's mindful colouring...

Hospital consultant here. Don’t do it. Especially don’t do it if you want to have kids. It’s unforgiving and relentless. I read “this is going to hurt” and I just thought “this is my life”. I have days that are good, but currently suffering from burn out (early 40s, 2 kids, husband who earns enough that I don’t need to work). You aren’t paid nearly enough for the responsibility, and please don’t say ‘I don’t mind the shifts’ until you’ve done them for 20 years. Last late starter I worked with had destroyed her marriage and her children’s lives pursuing her dream.......and she hated it.

@AnoukSpirit colouring in really really helped me when I was struggling with severe PTSD. It really did.

“although you'd have to do a PhD to be a clinical psychologist, I don't think you need a PhD to be an assistant psychologist, and you definitely don't to be a psychotherapist).”

No.

You must do a BPS accredited undergrad or conversion MSc in psychology in order to become an assistant psychologist.

You then need to do a professional doctorate to become a clinical psychologist. This is different from a PhD.

Both the doctorate and assistant positions are extremely competitive.

As an aside, did anyone else read This is Going to Hurt & just think 'and...?'

I was utterly underwhelmed (& I am big fan of Amateur Transplants) It didn't even come close to describing some of my shifts.

What about clinical paychology?

Psychologists enjoy saying how competitive entry to training is, but don’t let that put you off, it is definitely doable if you choose wisely where to apply for.

It would take a long time though, you’d be looking at a psychology conversion masters, then 2-4 years experience (ideally as an assistant psych) while applying for the doctorate. Once you get on, that’s another 3 years to qualify, but the majority of time is on placement and you get paid a very healthy amount. So, realistically 6-8 years before qualifying, but no ongoing exams and mandatory nightshifts as in med school. Salary for a consultant Psychologist maxes out at about 80K but that’s still pretty good in my book!

I'm not sure I'll like or understand science.

OP I would never want to be your patient then.

I nearly did this 10 years ago in my late 20s. There’s a fast-track route I was looking at for existing graduates where you could get the science background done in a year.

I decided against it in the end because of one of the questions on the application asked me to demonstrate I had the ability to learn and retain a lot of very boring, complex and not particularly meaningful information, and I realised that’s just not me.

For what it’s worth I retain info about psychology, politics, art, current affairs, history. Because I’m interested in them. I cannot, cannot remember things I find boring - at least not long term. And however interested you are in the field of medicine/psychiatry, there are a lot of very dull things you need to know to get there. Chemical compositions of drugs etc.

You need to have very strong chemistry and biology even at A level. Those who come into medicine later tend to be very numerate, with degrees or postgrads in subjects like anatomy, biochemistry, microbiology or pharmacy. With your degrees you could get onto a psychology conversion diploma and if you did very well you could get onto a clinical psychology doctorate (these are very competitive) with the aim of becoming a clinical psychologist.

I’m a nurse practitioner in Primary care.
Used to work in Cardiology but as I got in to my late 30s/40s I just could not hack the shifts. I had teenagers 11 year old and 9 year old. I was exhausted all the time. Moving into Primary care was right for me but it will take you a long time to get to the 9 to 5.

Your problem isn’t your age. It’s the fact that you don’t like science and don’t understand it. Here are the entry requirements for Uk medical schools.

www.medschools.ac.uk/media/2032/msc-entry-requirements-for-uk-medical-schools.pdf

For graduate entry, they typically require a high2:1 or first in a bio medical or biological science and AAA at A level with an A or A* in chemistry. Plus two weeks minimum work experience in a health care setting.

Many also use an entry test such as GAMSAT. I don’t know the cut off for interview but for UKCAT it’s usually top 50%.

You will see on the link that there’s often 20 applicants for each place. For the London medical schools that give a figure, it’s 12, 30 and 50 applicants per place .

So first you would need excellent grades in your science A levels then 2.1 in a science degree ( if you wish to go for the 4 year graduate courses ). That’s 5 years minimum.

Then you have to get a better than average score in the GAMSAT ( or similar ) - remember everyone sitting this test is a potential medial school applicant so is generally pretty smart .

That’s just to have a chance of an interview . Most schools offer places to around half of interviewees.

That’s how hard it is to get into medical school.

You could spend the next 5 years doing all this and not even get a place. A friends daughter has 11 A GCSE and 4 A at A level and didn’t get any interviews because of her low UKCAT score. She then applied again another year and didn’t get in that time either.

That’s what people mean when they say it’s competitive to get in.

I note that you are intending to work in paid employment all the way through medical school to self fund. While this isn’t impossible , it will make your four years much much tougher. Remember it’s usually a 9-5 5 days a week course and your terms will be shorter than for other degrees.

That’s just to graduate.

Then factor in all the information you have been given up thread about being a junior doctor , going for promotion and what it would actually be like working in the speciality you are interested in.

my question is why you say you want to retrain as a Dr, when you say you've no interest in science?

This. I am truly baffled by this.
It is science (and quick fire maths) day in day out.

Also there is no way you’d be able to work part time after first year of a medical degree. The study hours are a full time job in themselves.
Do you want children by the way?

Keep in mind that a medical degree is just a degree, a bloody hard one yes but still just a degree. But it is a degree that institutionalises you, so once you graduate it is hard to shake the mindset even if you hate the job. People end up sticking with it and progressing in the profession just because they are so institutionalised they can’t see outside of medicine.

I have dithered back and forth with wanting out. Most of my friends are leaving, very few of my med school cohort have plans to stay working as doctors/consultant.

@Streambeam - No, we don’t “enjoy” saying the training routes are very competitive at all. I would like nothing better than the number of doctorate places (in my strand, at least), to be doubled. There is a chronic shortage of EPs. I presume it’s a similar picture for CP.

OP. I’m 32. I’ve just finished Access Science. I was offered a place doing Medicine with Foundation Year at my Uni. I love Science. I love medicine.

After much deliberation, I turned it down. This is due to me being single parent with 3DC, rather than my academic ability or passion for the subject. I accepted a place at the same Uni doing a Science subject. I still have the option of transferring to a standard Medicine degree IF I pass this year with a certain percentage. So basically, Uni want me on their Medicine course.

However much it pains me to reject both the offers, (the second one is still open to me) I have to because it’s just not workable for me. There’s also post grad entry however I’m still not convinced that even then I’d be able to do it, as my youngest will still only be 6.

Really interesting advice above. My dh is a doctor (not in same field) and it's taken him 20 years to go through med school, foundation years, sho, registrar rotations, fellowship, locum- before securing a consultant post. It's been really tough with lots of travelling and moving house for a year at a time.