To ask in your very honest opinion what age do you think it's too late to retrain as a doctor?

[VladmirsPoutine]

Considering you'd then need time to specialise and become a consultant?

Please be as frank as you can because I just want to know. I'm considering this path and I'm early 30s. I'd have to start from scratch basically. Though I have 3 degrees none of them are science related and I've mainly always worked in communications/writing/advertising and that sort of thing.

You are a spring chicken - you want it, go for it. It is physically gruelling but as long as you're fit, just do it.

You have 3 degrees. Can you afford to fund a 4th
Honestly you will struggle to find a uni will accept you as employability is key

I'm thinking about doing clinical psychology so I'm not against the whole going back to uni thing. But like you I do think it looks bad to have too much education, like you can't or don't want to work. I think you need to prove why they should take you, against loads of keen 18 year olds with work experience.
BTW they do graduate entry of 4 years if you have a related degree

honestly, with exceptions of course, id say mid to late 20s.

im in my 20s and have considered it, but it seems like alot of hassle to then qualify in my 30s, added debt, stress etc i dont think it would be worth it

theres no guarantee of entry either, you will be up against alot of competition for a place on a course.

Look at graduate entry 4 year programmes. Technically an undergraduate degree but as you need a first undergraduate degree to gain entry, you may find there is additional fees support from the NHS. May have changed in the last few years. Not all 4-year programmes require a science degree to gain entry. Same number of course hours; less holiday. Go for it!

Early thirties is nothing (I was quite a bit older than you when I started medical school). The 'previous degrees' thing is irrelevant - it's not uncommon for mature med school entries to have several previous degrees.

However...I'd be interested to know why you want to be a doctor. If you are harbouring any desire to 'help people', I'd say - nope. Don't even think about it. Interesting comment above too about being able to cope with the blood'n'guts aspect - yep, you'll be the one trying to site an NG tube as that patient vomits up their own shit. And then you'll go straight off for your lunch after as you might not get another chance to eat or drink all day.

Emotional aspects: have you dealt with people in extreme emotional states on a professional level before? Because many of your patients will be going through truly dreadful times, they will die horribly right in front of you, then you will have to go down and see them in the morgue. Others will lie and steal and threaten you/your colleagues. And then there's the relatives...

Money: the funding situation changes year-on-year. My understanding is that - right now - full tuition and maintenance loans are available to those studying medicine with prior degrees. But can you face graduating with colossal debt? You will find it very difficult to work p/t beyond the first couple of years. If you end up resitting exams as a result of needing to work as well as study, be aware that this will affect the 'points' that increase/decrease your likelihood of scoring your first job in a location that is not across the other side of the country. Medical school is hard no matter how smart you are, plenty of 'smart' students come unstuck.

The bottom rung of training is absolutely, truly bloody awful - I won't repeat the comments above that outline why. To that, add in the stress of working in what is now an essentially failing (and frequently unsafe) system. I expect you have read about the Bawa-Garba case? That could have so easily been any junior doctor in the country.

There is at least rather more flexibility around p/t working now due to an overall shortage of junior doctors. I know numerous p/t trainees at all levels, and I intend to continue my training p/t after this year.

I don't regret retraining - it's truly a privilege to be allowed to share in people's lives in this way, so many talented and hilarious colleagues, etc, etc - but it has not been what I expected and I realise that I will need to scale down my ambitions considerably for the sake of my physical/mental health.

Oof, that was long. In summary: absolutely possible, but you have no idea what you will be getting yourself into.

@quickquickslowslow Thank you for that. I absolutely wanted that level of honesty. I volunteer with people right now that have mental health problems and I want to be a Psychiatrist.

I could easily just stay in my job and do that - it's stressful yes but I earn quite a lot and I'm fine with my life at the moment. That's why I'm wondering if I could take this leap because it would mean dedicating my entire life to it.

A friend of mine trained as a forensic psychologist (I think that’s the right term) working with sex offenders. She has the title Dr but hasn’t done the medical training.
Would something like that be better?

@VladmirsPoutine You're welcome :) I'm not trying to 'put you off' - but it's a high-stakes move if you're not fully aware of the potential consequences. Maybe set yourself a timescale to do a little more research? I would suggest shadowing Foundation level docs and Psych registrars - including on-call if at all possible. Consultants have survived the crap years and won't give you the full picture. (I actually haven't completely ruled out Psych for myself - and there's a recruitment crisis in psych atm! - but I expect I'll choose GP in the end).

I don't think age is so much a factor as personal resources/flexibility. Training posts fling you to different areas every 12 months, shifts and often annual leave are fixed at the start of each job. In most posts people with children of any age need a partner/MIL/nanny who will cover every eventuality.

If I were going into medicine late I don't think I'd be fussed about becoming a consultant though. I think I'd be looking at getting a staff grade/associate specialist job early on, and certainly there are plenty of these posts in psychiatry.

@TheTurnOfTheScrew But I want to be a consultant Psychiatrist. It's now or never. I wonder if in fact I love the idea more than the job itself but I know I want to do it. Working all shifts doesn't bother me. I can do that.

But I want to stay in London - can they just randomly move you around the country?

I was 24 when I started and I was one of the youngest on my grad entry course - the oldest was 42. The early years are pretty gruelling (lots of weekends and night shifts) but once you get through those it gets better. If you are physically fit and healthy and a have a non-stressful/supportive home life it helps.

Some courses accept students with non-science degrees so you wouldn’t necessarily have to do a science degree to get in.

@VladmirsPoutine At every stage of training, you will be competing with others for places on various 'points'/interview-based systems. It's points alone to gain your foundation training post. At the moment the points are half 'academic achievement', and half a psychometric test that is essentially a lottery for most candidates.

The London deaneries are pretty much the hardest to get into in the entire country. Unless you ace your med school degree (think top 10% of your cohort) and the psychometric test (prior degrees do also give you extra points, fortunately enough, so does publishing research papers whilst at med school) - forget it. You'll go where you meet the points cut-off, like it or lump it. I know a newly qualified doc who has had to up sticks from the house he owns to start work at the other end of the country. It's that or apply again next August, with no job in-between.

There's a bit more flexibility moving forward, but again - London is competitive. Even if you manage to get a post with a 'London' deanery, you may still be facing a long journey to your actual place of work.

I know someone in my year who graduated this year at 50. So no you’re technically not too old.

I agree with PPs though- the job itself is not ideal at any age and is a huge commitment.

I went at 18 and I was so done after 5 years. I didn’t especially enjoy the last few years at university despite enjoying the actual course. Student life takes its toll and you’re the bottom of the pecking order on wards. Every day in your final year you just turn up and offer help and people often aren’t very nice. It’s very demoralising.

I love my career and I’m glad I do it but I would never do it later in life.

You have to graduate top to stay in London. I could never have gone back to live in London as even though I was top 20% of my year, it wasn’t high enough to get a job in London. So no, you will go where you’re sent. As you will with placements at med school too. I’m based in the north west but have been sent as far as Anglesey and the Isle of Man. It’s intense.

Best of luck with whatever you decide

I’ve just had a look at the graduate entry medicine course in Scotland. It requires higher/A-level chemistry and standard grade/GCSE maths despite your degree. Is that similar for England? Do you have those?

I know even for undergrad medicine they want all your grades to have been achieved on first sitting. I have a BSc and Masters in biology/biomedical science and I still wouldn’t be accepted because I don’t have higher Chemistry

Do you have to be a consultant psychiatrist to do what you want in mental health?

There are many many mental health related careers out there and I'd suggest you explore them all before committing yourself to essentially 7 years of almost no mental health content before getting anywhere even close to where you want to be.

On the other hand psychiatry is a major shortage speciality so you would be guaranteed a job, and there are non-consultant career paths in it too.

However you might find psych nursing, counselling, mental health social work etc is much closer to want you actually want to do.

Good on you for wanting to do this - but it sounds tough whatever age you are! Have you read This Is Going to Hurt, by Dr Adam Kaye? It will give you an honest picture of what life is like for a junior doctor.

Its a very medical way of going about working in mental health as in years of wards etc. Psych nursing would be the quickest way to work in mh and then postgrad specialisation.

Why do you specifically want to be a consultant psychiatrist? It sounds as if you're chasing the money aspect of it as opposed to the actual vocation itself?

From what I've seen of psychiatrists they see people for 20 minute reviews two or three times a year to update medication, what draws you to that particularly rather than other mental health roles?

Rachel Clarke "Your life in my hands" was older when she retrained. Maybe late 20's.
If you haven't read her book you should do so.

As BIWI suggests, read This Is Going To Hurt first!! I just finished it today... It's a real eye-opener into the life of a junior doctor (and you'd be a junior doctor for a long time).

Another one to say that London is very competitive, and I doubt that will change any time soon. Psych is a shortage specialty but London is still oversubscribed at pretty much every level (not sure of the consultant situation). You would have to compete to stay in London firstly for medical school, then foundation jobs, then SHO jobs, then Reg jobs, and finally for consultant jobs.
Each of those will have some degree of randomness, especially with the SJT type questions when applying for junior doctor jobs. Also I doubt you’ll have time to work much, especially in the later years of a medical degree if you’re doing extra to ge ‘points’ for your applications, and most courses frown upon it.
I didn’t mean to be super pessimistic, but there are probably more straightforward ways into working in psychiatry, maybe via nursing or psychotherapy?

I know someone who just finished aged 48. So, mid forties? There's a shortage of GPs. Surely someone who completed training in their mid fifties would still be offering NHS a good ten years' service, so it would be worthwhile to close the gap.

I say go for it if you don't have children - you will get moved around lots once you graduate - I believe you do several 6 month stints in different hospitals.

Just be aware a lot of doctors are desperate to get out at present and a lot feel miserable in their jobs.You need to be 100% determined this is the best course of action for you