To ask my employees why their DH’s aren’t pulling their weight when it comes to childcare?

[TheHoneyHunt]

So I know that my DH and me are fairly unusual in that we have a very equal approach to childcare and household chores. To be fair I wasn’t born lucky. My first H was an abusive freeloader, and I swore never to make that mistake again. However, I’ve now got so used to this way of living that I now find it normal.

I’m now lucky enough to have got to the stage in my career where I manage a large team. These are well paid jobs, paying £40k+, but do require some out of hours working.

Two of my team are on maternity leave. In discussing their return to work they both seem to be assuming that they will do all the childcare. Every pick up, every drop off. Their DH’s don’t seem to appear in the equation. As the employer of the mother, I am asked to accept all the flexibility required. And yet they are still talking about wanting to be treated as equals with their male counterparts.

If the want to be treated as equals in the workplace, AIBU to question why their childcare arrangements aren’t equal?

(I know there is an official “HR” answer to this...which will definitely go along the lines of “don’t even go there”....but what I want to know is am I being unreasonable to think this)

*I well remember the childless hag boss saying to me; if I say you can't take your leave in the Easter holidays, you can't take it then. Her face when I said, well I absolutely can because if you insist on that you don't get me here for any of the time because I don't have to work. After a bit of argy bargy my leave was approved. She lasted about another six months.

Having said that, I had my childcare sorted and never took the p but no way was my leave going to be taken at times other than the holidays.*

Well don’t you sound lovely? Childless hag?! Demanding leave in the holidays? It’s no wonder women have a bad name in the workplace...

Childless hag? Lucky for you you don't have to work. Shame for the other women that can't be so entitled and aggressive.

All these explanatory posts... you're not really allowed to admit you might just want to be the one there for your children. That you'd rather collect them from childcare or be there if something happens. I certainly do and would much rather be the one to go home if they are sick.

It's almost like there's a difference between men and women and that many women (not all) having carried their babies inside them for 9 months and sustained them just feel more inclined to be the ones to be with the kids.

But no you can't say that, there are no differences between men and women except men are selfish arseholes. If it wasn't for the terrible men in their lives women would drop as much childcare as possible the moment they could, because they would all rather be focusing on their careers as much as possible rather than dealing with the pesky children. Many women (again not all) just care about their children more than their jobs once they become mothers but that's probably internalised misogyny or something because true feminists only want to focus on progress in their careers, nothing else.

In my circumstances I want to always do pick ups and go home when they're sick, but we share it because I do understand it's pressure on my employers. It's hard for us to share it as DH is self employed so loses out more, but we do. The situation is reversed to how you imagine it though, I don't share it because it have such an enlightened DH - we share it because I know what arseholes most managers are.

It's also unfair as the women you mentioned initially are going on mat leave and right now their baby isn't even born. It's probably inconceivable to them the prospect of anyone else caring for them. This is likely to change with time.

I do know I'm a terrible feminist for wanting to spend time with my children rather than be like a man. The goal is to be as much like a man as possible and denounce all potentially feminine traits as we all know that being feminine is bad and wanting to be with children is basically the same as wanting to time travel back to the 50s.

@Jenala thanks for writing this.

I do 99% if drop off and pick ups for two reasons. 1 is that my job is a lot more flexible and the hours are better. My DP starts work hours before nursery is open, it is not feasible. He could pick up sometimes but not reliably.
2 is that this is how I choose to parent. I want to pick my child up, I don’t want to work late, I want to put him to bed.

I value my career and the freedom it gives me but WITHIN working hours ONLY because as soon as it’s 5.01 my priority is my family. I am not ashamed of this.

YABU - nothing worse then a female boss who thinks it’s easier to manage or promote men because of this kind of thing.
You need to drag your attitude out of the 1980s - flexible working is becoming one of the most important things that ALL people value in a job. Not just because of having kids. Men and women have lives outside of work and therefore shit to deal with - health issues, elderly parents, kids, a hobby or study or similar that they want to do alongside of work. A spouse could suddenly get the better paid job or lose their job or get ill or need support that one of YOuR employees will need to give them.
You won’t get the best people favouring men, when half the workforce is female.
Can’t STAND your kind of attitude. All you need to worry about is supporting YOUR staff - their partners work elsewhere.
My wirknoffer flexible working to all staff, used mainly by the parents or carers. And I can tell you now that my staff working compacted hours or 3-4 days a week or WFH absolutely knock it out. They are focused and hardworking and get stuff done AT least as much as the full timers.

Jenala: of course it is fine to want to be a mother over and above a career professional. And feminism has fought for both motherhood to be valued and for women to be allowed to progress in the workplace free from discrimination.

The tension is that while women do both, parenthood and work, men do so in fewer numbers. And it means that employers creating family friendly practices have more employees who put the job second.

Bloody hell nip.

“We live in an unequal society. The question you, as a senior manager, should he asking OP is what you can do to change that. Blaming your female employees is not the answer.”

She ISN’T blaming her female employees. She is blaming the fathers of their children for not taking an equal or fair share of the childcare!

Of course you can value your family over your career but do you think that should have no impact on your career and your colleagues?

Also, no one is saying women can't care for their children they are asking why men don't. If looking after children is so brilliant why don't men want to do it? If men want children then that comes with a commitment and responsibilities. Is it unreasonable to ask if one half of the couple who made the child does one half of the work.

DH and I have always shared childcare according to our work commitments at any given time.

When DD was very little he did pick up and drop off from nursery and we split sick days (generally I did more as I could work from home and his job is based at his work - my baby just slept when ill so I could wfh). When she started school I had a term time only job in order to cover holidays. It was also part time and based at home. This enabled me to drop off (childminder did pick up). Sick days were covered equally between us. Thinking through my friends, a lot of them have crafted careers that allow one of them to be around for school and holidays. A couple work freelance and are able to work flexibility. One has set up their own business working 2/3 days a week in school hours. Another has become a very successful youtuber and mostly works in the evenings. They are all a mixture of men and women. I can only think of one friend who does majority pick ups/drop offs and that's because her DHs job is based quite far away. He does cover sickness though. So I don't think that just because some women are taking it on, doesn't mean that all women are.

What I do think though is that there are a lot on women who WANT to be around more than men. I for example specifically went out and found a term time only job, that was part time and wfh to be around more and do more at home with my children. I didn't and don't want to be working full time in an office or trying to juggle the logistics of flexibility. I just want to be around for my children and if I could I would be a sahm. I know a lot of people who feel like this. That being said, I have never had a gap in employment and the only breaks I have taken have been mat leave. When my children are older I would love to throw myself back into a proper career, which is why I continue to work in some capacity, but right now I want to be around more.

Will you also be discussing this issue when the male employees? To check they're doing equal childcare responsibilities?

I t was actually written into my contract that my annual leave would be taken in the holidays. I was on £26k and had kept the operational end of the dept afloat during a period when the dept had 4 heads of in 18 months. I was there at 9am - 6pm most days. It irks when a bad boss knocks a grafter.

I get you op and yanbu. Of course sometimes circumstances dictate, or women prefer, to do all the running around. But a lot of it is still about the different expectations in the workplace of men and women when it comes to childcare.

Dh is in quite a male dominated industry and his employer still pays very little heed to the flexible working practices that allow things in other areas to be more equal. I remember his boss's reaction when dh told him he was unable to do a meeting the other side of the country because I already had one in the diary that had been in there for several weeks: "Is your wife's job more important than yours?" To which dh replied "No. My children are more important than a meeting that can be arranged on a different day."

He does most of the drop offs and pick ups because I wfh and our cm lives in a village that is on his journey to work. It makes sense. But even when we both worked in an office, he shared the drop offs and pick ups.

If I'm honest, I prefer to look after the dc when they're ill. This is partly because I really enjoy the snuggles and I know that dh can't bear sitting still on a sofa, but also because dh's employer is so inflexible and it's always a big deal if he asks for time off at late notice, even though he has a work phone and laptop that means he invariably is able to work from home quite easily. My employer is hugely flexible and allow me to do what I can when I can when the dc are ill, but if I have a very important meeting that has been arranged around other people's availability, I have to go into the office for it. Dh covers illness on those occasions but usually has to take leave to cover childcare because of the huffing and puffing he'd otherwise encounter.

Workplace practices for and entrenched sex-based stereotypes of men and women still bear a huge responsibility for the enduring disparity I think. Women and men need to challenge that more, but do it on a personal and individual level will be ineffectual op and breed resentment, but I think you know that. Better to focus your efforts wider than that for a remedy.

Concentrate on the positive thing you can do - encourage your male employees to meet their children’s needs. My partner had his flexible working request turned down so it all falls on me and it sucks. I am a manager too and I encourage a father I manage to work from home one day a week and to leave in time for bath time every day.

Of course you can value your family over your career but do you think that should have no impact on your career and your colleagues?

I worked in the same job for some years before DC so I feel like I did my time of putting in extra hours for those with children or adult caring responsibilities etc. Your career is long, I don’t feel remotely guilty at working fewer hours now because I know over a whole career it evens out.
Also because I knew my job well I feel like I do as well as or better that my colleagues that are staying until 6/7/8. I think my boss would also say this and I’m well paid.

I do feel that at this point in my life I would t switch careers because I am unwilling to dedicate the kind of time and effort it takes to getting to know a new sector, company, process etc. This was why I waited until I was established in my workplace until having children.

“I'm sure there is a logical explanation”

There is op. And you’re right about what it is.

Because that’s how it works best for some families. I do 99% of the childcare because I can work from home. My husband also works from home, but where my job is pick up, put down, his requires hours and hours of continual thought and focus.
It’s what works best for us. But not everyone would have the same set up so not everyone can do the same.

wheelerdealer - I agree. In fact often the higher earner has better terms and conditions - I know I would be unpaid, whereas DH can work from home. I also think a day out of a part time contract is a bigger % of the week so it seems odd for a PT employee to have the time off over a FT one as it has a bigger impact.

yanbu
I'm also in a relationship where the dad does 50% of everything.
I wouldn't want it any other way.

when dc are sick we do half days each, so the employer sees commitment. win win.

Hope you also ask your male team members why they aren't leaving early to do pick up.

I’ve done this with male colleagues when arranging meetings - casually asking what time they’ll need to leave to pick up their kid. The usual reaction is to look at me like I have three heads.

Jenala what about the men who have exactly the same feelings? I know my dh would have felt very upset if he wasn't allowed that kind of involvement just because I wanted it, as if my needs trumped his.

And it would have been hard for me to play the "carried them inside my womb" card when both our families have included adopted/stepchildren who have been loved in exactly the same way as the biological children. If we claim I love my dc in a more special way because I carried them, then what happens to my youngest brother who was delivered to my mother by aeroplane? (answer is: nothing at all happens, she bonded with him by caring for him, I do not love my dc more than she loves him)

Bonding happens in all sorts of ways and the way dh has bonded with their children is by being there and meeting their needs since the day they were delivered.

The suggestion of openly challenging the female employees is obviously a crap one- does the OP think they are obliged to reveal if their husband is abusive or alcoholic or seriously ill? - but like NameChange's approach of gently hinting to the men themselves.

postcardsfrom
There is flexible working as in an actual request for flexible hours, part time etc.

Then there is flexible working of 'oh but I need to leave early because my friend can't do pick up. I'm going to come in late because DC has a doctor app. Not in today because children are unwell. Got to have Friday afternoon off because of sports says.

The first is totally reasonable.
The second are responsibilities which should really be split between parents, not something the mother does whilst the father gets his working life ring fenced. It doesn't matter how much someone earns, if someone is paid to do a job then it is reasonable to expect a level of commitment from it.
Most people are reasonable and know emergencies happen. But it must be irritating as a boss when it's always your company being disrupted because the men in these women's lives couldn't possible do anything themselves.

Also, no one is saying womencan'tcare for their children they are asking why men don't. If looking after children is so brilliant why don't men want to do it? If men want children then that comes with a commitment and responsibilities. Is it unreasonable to ask if one half of the couple who made the child does one half of the work
This ^^

Despite working a 50 hour week when his contract technically says 40 (although it’s one of those “or as required”) contracts when my dh asked if he could take a reduced salary and leave an hour early twice a week after my maternity leave he was told that he should have a word with his wife about whose job was important!

Unfortunately a lot of employers still don’t think men should do the “wife work” - and we need his job too much to fight it

Hmm this is a tricky one. But presumably every pick up and drop off would be outside of office hours anyway as most nurseries are 8-6? Maybe it's just a logistical thing. I do all nursery drop offs and pick ups as nursery is near my work and it opens 2 hours after my dh has left for work (6am). For things like child being sick and needing picking up early it should be equally shared, no matter what the ranking of the job (emergency services etc excluded).

Working is shit once you’ve had a baby. Your years of late working, extra hours and flexibility are forgotten the minute you have to take a half day to be off with a sick child. Even when that half day is from your annual leave. Getting up at 3.30 to fly away for 4 days on business expected but sports day? Rolling of eyes
We can’t win