Friend going out with a loser

[snowy2000]

A very close friend (friends since young children, now in our mid-thirties) is going out with a guy that I think is going to disappoint her, long term. She’s one of those people who’s always preferred to be in a relationship, and before this relationship, was seeing someone who was incredibly charming, funny, clever.. had a bit about him, if you know what I mean. He also happened to come from quite a lot of money, not that money makes you happy though. They drifted apart, and ended things amicably, and She’s now been going out with her current fella about three years. Without wanting to sound overly mean, he’s just not very dynamic. Shy, a bit unapproachable, hard work to chat to (although she clearly gets on very well with him and loves him dearly – she’s hilarious so I guess there must be more to him than meets the eye). He’s got an average manual job with limited prospects. Won’t ever earn really enough for a mortgage (not in London anyway) again not the be all and end all but i know she is keen to get on the property ladder (she earns more than him) .He doesn’t strike me as being that bright. He also suffers from bad anxiety and bouts of depression, and smokes a lot of mariguana (I think he smokes every day which clearly exacerbates his issues). They have discussed marriage (more her pushing for it) and I think he’s pushed back / bought time by saying that he doesn’t like a fuss, if they do it one day, it’ll just be the two of them type thing. I know she also wants children one day but I worry that the clock is ticking on that one (nearly 36), and I can’t see this guy feeling “ready” to have kids any time soon – he has so many issues of his own. Without going on too much, my question is, do I / her other friends say anything to her? I would hate for her to miss a potential for a husband and kids (which is what she frequently says she wants), but at the same time, she is always going on how much she loves and adores this guy (but we think she does too much for him, bends over backwards, and not sure what she gets in return). Don’t want to unnecessarily upset or cause hurt but we think he will let her down. Your views are appreciated and thank you.

He also suffers from bad anxiety and bouts of depression, and smokes a lot of mariguana (I think he smokes every day which clearly exacerbates his issues).

I don't think it's as simple as that. Many, many people turn to drugs to sooth MH issues not because they're feckless thickos that don't understand that their vices sometimes make the things they're escaping worse.

I think I'm spikey about this thread because I was addicted to prescription meds when DP and I met. I eventually kicked them with support from DP and the rehab but it wasn't easy. We both had to work hard at it but we knew it was worth it.

If she loves him enough to accept the current state of things that's her business. All the stuff about him not earning much and not being that bright is not important. If she loves him and he makes her happy that's that. It's her business if they want to work through the drug use together.

Maybe you should just mind your own business? Telling someone you think their partner is a 'loser' is cuntery of the very highest order.

I think your friend is hoping that this man will change for her when he never will. She wants him to be more ambitious, to stop smoking so much weed, and to get married and have children. He isn't going to do any of those things with her.

She is wasting her time with him. You could ask her why she wants him to change when he isn't going to, and why she isn't with someone who wants what she does. But don't expect it to go down well.

I'm a bit conflicted on this.

He sounds like a bit of a dosser, but on the other hand I wouldn't generally advise my male friends to reconsider a relationship with a lower salaried woman.

I'm surprised actually at how many people think the op is rude.

If a woman came on here, said her partner smokes weed, has no ambition, doesn't seem to want to get married or have kids and has a different sense of humour and outlook on life to her, would you all say 'stay with him' or 'none of our business'?

Maybe wait until the next time she moans about him and agree with her emphatically?

snowy2000 I think it's the fact that you have mentioned salaries that has diverted people. I do think that if my friend cried to me about her DP I would tell her the truth. The drug use would be difficult for me to overlook if my friend asked me and the lack of commitment when she wants kids. My advice would be that next time she comes crying to you about him ask her to consider her future, does she see it with him, will he have kids and marry her etc?? Don't mention salaries or mortgages though because it's not relevant.

Maybe pay for her to have therapy.

In hindsight I totally understand why my calling out salaries / mortgages has thrown people and make me seem less... sympathetic than I might otherwise actually be. The reason I thought it important to give that context though is because these are real ambitions of my friend. She's free to want those things, although they might not be important to many. I also appreciate that the "ideal" man comes in many guises. Me and her friends by no stretch view this as crudely as man who wears a suit / works in finance = a great catch. If anything, no-one in our circle works in 'corporate' jobs (not that there's anything wrong with that), but it's crude to think that all we want for her is a rich city-type. She's very creative and arty, and I think that's the sort of thing she goes for. Her boyfriend, so far as we can tell, is neither of these things, but as mentioned earlier, she must see a lot of good in him to pursue the relationship, and who are we to tell - you never know what goes on behind closed doors. Re: the weed thing - appreciate it can be a viscous circle - but in this instance, I think it's masking other MH issues that he avoids confronting and essentially uses the weed as a bit of a crutch.

I think you're coming from a good place. Thiis quote might answer your question:

Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact.
Everything we see is a perspective, not a truth.

Basically, you have view and she has hers. Say nothing, until (or if) she needs or asks you. Maybe he's amazing in bed it has some hidden side to him only she sees.

Basically, the best you can do is try and build her self esteem and self worth.

As sad as it is, if she misses out on what she wants in life, that's on her. We are all responsible for the choices we make.

The guy doesnt sound like a catch to me, I won't lie.

I meant he not it

Everyone who smokes weed every day for years ends up with mental health issues, even if they didn't have them before. It fucks up your brain.

Your friend sounds like a damn fool . I predict she gets sick of him 2 kids dowwn the line when she's running her arse ragged trying to bring home the bacon and sort the kids whilst he's still sat on his arse paranoid, depressed and stoned.

he appears to have no motivation to achieve anything in his life.
He's happy with his life. We're not all motivated by career or kids, we're motivated just to enjoy life while we're here. If that's forging ahead in a career, devoting your life to children, or just chilling the fuck out with a joint who is anyone to judge that? We're all different.

is it kind of this guy to fob my mate off by saying he'll 'maybe' be ready for marriage and kids one day? I just hate the thought that she will miss out on having the kids she says she wants because he's 'not ready yet'
But he's being honest? It's up to her to take that information and act on it, if she is indeed THAT hung up on having kids then surely she will leave. Is it kind to keep bothering him about kids when he's been clear all along he doesn't actually know what he wants? Some of us don't actually know. I'm 31 and don't have a clue if I want kids. I know my fertility is dropping but I can't just MAKE my brain decide.

None of you (apart from AskMeHow) seem willing to admit that being funny or clever or friendly or not always stoned are desirable traits; what's wrong in wanting that for your good friend?
He's clearly funny and friendly to your friend though. And because someone (you deem) is 'unintelligent' are they not worthy? Just because you don't get his personality doesn't mean he's not the right person for her.

If a woman came on here, said her partner smokes weed, has no ambition, doesn't seem to want to get married or have kids and has a different sense of humour and outlook on life to her, would you all say 'stay with him' or 'none of our business'?
The friend in OP's scenario isn't saying any of this though. As far as OP has said her friend is happy in her relationship and adores her partner. If a woman came on to post "my male friend is dating a woman who I THINK has no personality, has a low salaried menial job (which is terrible as deemed by ME!), doesn't want kids but he adores her and is really happy, shall I tell him to leave the bitch because she's clearly a loser" I'm sure you'd get people saying she was interfering and judgemental. Just as they are telling OP she is in this situation.

I understand you want what is best for your friend, and somewhere you are hopefully coming from a good place but honestly this is her life. Stop judging her partner so much, he probably is aware of your feelings and has his back up when you're around so isn't the friendly, funny, sociable person he is around her. Be supportive and open and less judgemental.

"If a woman came on here, said her partner smokes weed, has no ambition, doesn't seem to want to get married or have kids and has a different sense of humour and outlook on life to her, would you all say 'stay with him' or 'none of our business'?"

The difference being, of course, that this is not the OP's partner, it's the partner of someone who has not asked for advice. Honestly, I think going onto a forum and asking for advice about a relationship that you are not actually a part of is pretty fucking dickish.

But the friend in this situation is saying it. The op has updated a few times saying that the friend is crying to other friends about his weed smoking or lack of ambition or lack of wanting marriage or kids. The friend is complaining about it.

What's your advice now based on that to the op?

As I said, the friend is trying to change a man who at 45 is clearly never going to change. He's like this forever. She just doesn't see that. Hopefully she will, but it's unlikely.

Are you my friend OP. I have my suspicions a couple of my friends think this about my relationship

Op you aren't a Mumsnetter until you've had a bit of a roasting, don't worry.

I would feel the same way you do - I think it's clear you just care about your friend. I dated someone similar to this man and when I left several people said, 'thank goodness. He was lovely but not right.' I had mixed feelings as to whether people should have said something sooner to me. I probably just would have felt defensive as I loved my ex and he had many wonderful qualities in amongst the bad.

As much as it might worry you, I don't think you can say anything. Your friend is a grown woman. At most I would try asking her questions. 'How will you feel if you get to 40 and haven't had children?' 'Are you happy with the direction your relationship is going?' Questions aren't judgements - they will however give your friend space to talk honestly. But there's nothing you can do if ultimately she wants to stay with this man.

I like that quote @SallySeeker and @Baumederose, you speak sense. @Burp1, i'm sure its not you but I think the overall feeling from here is that each to their own, give advice if it's asked of you, be tactful and kind, and realise that people have to live their own lives and make their own mistakes and just because you value certain qualities it doesn't mean that they are objectively what's good or bad in a person. I want to reiterate that this is coming from a good place, and I would hate for my own children to think of their mum as being a horrible person or a judgemental / interferring person because that is not how I am trying to bring them up! Maybe I am a hyporcite. @KidLorneRoll, you seem to have some strong views - but surely the whole point of this particular section of mumsnet is to be able to openly question things without being bashed by people like you, the clue's in the name!?!? (AIBU?)

It's frustrating when you can see things that someone either can't or won't see.

You can't change anyone else. No one gets it right all the time and sometimes people make bad choices that adversely impact their whole lives.

You aren't florence nightingale. Use this to look at yourself and why you are so bothered by this situation. You're not a bad person but this is a good lesson in accepting the things you cannot change.

Leave her to it. It will either change or it wont. You can be supportive to a point but that's about it fundamentally.

I disagree. I know it goes against the grain in our culture, but I think you should say something.

I had long term relationships with losers and every time I finally couldn't go on with every one of them and finished it - in desperation, after giving it my all - there was a queue of my friends and HIS friends saying "well done, he was never good enough for you". Each time, I thought: you waited till NOW to tell me?

I could see why they didn't. Our society makes the romantic duo the primary relationship that trumps all other concerns. I think this is really dangerous actually. I wish people had "put their beaks in" a bit more.

When I was 35 / 36 a Chinese friend pointed that if I ever wanted children, I should be seriously thinking about it. An English person would never have said that. She was right. I'm so glad she did. It isn't that she told me anything I didn't know, but her bluntness made me think.

I was desperately sad for years, the best years of my life in theory, flogging a variety of dead horses and feeling sad about the lack of freedom, joy, security, comfort in my life. If I had partnered with my equals - by which I simply mean people as honest and determined as me who were as willing to work as hard as I was - I wouldn't have had such heartache over feeling things like houses and children becoming gradually impossible (they weren't, in the end, narrowly, phew) because I wasn't "disloyal" enough to stand up for what I wanted and cut my losses. I don't know whether it would have been different if someone had tried to talk to me. but no one did.

You're shifting blame away from you onto other people for the choices you made.

You are responsible for your life and the decisions you make. It's also all a learning process.

Had those people advised you to give up on all.prospects of having kids, or told you that youd make a hopeless mother, wpukd you habe listened then?

You're cherry picking advice in hindsight that suits where you ended up after following your own journey and life path.

I think you’re getting a pasting because your OP is focussing in the wrong things.

The fact he’s quiet and has a low-paid job isn’t the problem; the problem is is that he’s constantly stoned.

Those of us who’ve had personal experience of cannabis addicts know exactly what you mean when you talk about low ambition and a lack of spark.

But you can’t live her life for her. If this is what she’s choosing to put up with, then that’s up to her. Just be there for her when she gets sick of it.

Are you talking to me, Baumrose? I am not shifting responsibility for my choices. I just think that sometimes it is a nice thing to do to be there for people and help them see things from a different angle. It is still my responsibility to sort my life out, just as it is still my responsibility if I see a careers coach or a financial advisor - or don't get around to seeing either. It's just that sometimes, talking to someone can help you see things in a useful light and I didn't have anyone who would be honest with me about how they felt about my relationships. they were doing it for the right reasons, but in our culture it is I think unhelpfully frowned upon to offer opinions on this question.

He also suffers from bad anxiety and bouts of depression, and smokes a lot of mariguana (I think he smokes every day which clearly exacerbates his issues).
I can’t see this guy feeling “ready” to have kids any time soon

If loser is snobbish, then try "immature nightmare".

But there is nothing you can do about it. Nor about the fact that your friend seems immature also.