To think you can’t really get a decent PT job unless you already work there

[Metoodear]

So following on from my post about working PT I getting loads of people saying yep rally easy to woke pt I get 30, 40k pro rata blah blah however these are often women who have worked for a company for a number of years then reduced after maternity leave i am also not talking about PT were you drop one day but are still working 9-5 four days a week

This kind of PT working is not what I was talking about I am talking about after having done a qualification then after having 2-5 years out of work after being a SHAM trying to find a PT job that is under 25 hours a week that is not in a school admin or retail in a company you never worked for
i am a support worker but have had to take a job at the lower end of the pay scale in order to secure 20 hours a week working i have friends that have degrees in physiology ect who work in admin and a friend who has a degree in a second language but is really struggling to find anything other than admin or work in a school for less than 25 hours after being at home for8 years

I myself have been looking for another job since I got my curroone and you just don’t see PT ones

Margery- recruitment can be quite eye opening can’t it? In my workplace we went through a phase of women who were full time wanting to drop to 4 days a week. We agreed that they could either stay on full time or drop to 3, on the grounds that it’s far easier to appoint a job share for the other 2 days than to try to find someone for just 1 day. One woman got quite arsy about it and couldn’t get beyond the fact that she could afford to drop one day but not 2. Fine, we said, stay on full time. But she didn’t want that either. Basically she calculated exactly what she needed to live on and expected us to reduce her hours to fit!

I wasn’t saying life in general was better in the 1950s. Of course there were issues - I’m merely pointing out the older system did work for some people and there are those of us today who would’ve preferred aspects of that way of life.

@rivertam do you really honestly believe that our employment / way of working hasn’t changed since the 50’s? I mean really?

I’ve seen a change since I’ve been in the post uni workplace - 12 years. Much more acceptance of working from home, much more shared responsibility of men and caring for children.

IMO there is a shift toward flexible working etc, just not one that works around the desires of people who only want to do school / term time hours, or do 2 days a week in a job where it’s too challenging to job share effectively.

But @blair - there was no ‘system’ there were societal norms. Women didn’t work, men did. A different economy. Different world politics and different careers.

The ‘system’ and it is one - we have now, protects women who want to work and have children. Offering them the chance to spend the first year or so at home, without risking losing their job, and although it’s flawed, limited arrangements in place to help subsidise childcare costs.

@momo27 that sounds nightmarish. I know I’m lucky to be doing 4 days - although I often do emails etc on a Friday but it’s the trade off, and worth it IMO to have the day at home.

The ‘system’ and it is one - we have now, protects women who want to work and have children. Offering them the chance to spend the first year or so at home, without risking losing their job, and although it’s flawed, limited arrangements in place to help subsidise childcare costs.

But the expectation is now that two parents work. It’s not changed to one parent, man or woman, works. So all it’s done is reduce time kids have with their family

But many parents want to work Blair. And this was denied to them in the past. Since is absolutely correct- the systems now protect womens’ rights. The systems don’t force women to work- they make it easier for them and offer protection for them if they do.

I think you’re muddling a number of different issues here but in terms of actual systems there has never been a better time in history for mums and dads to carve parenting and earning responsibilies up in a way which suits there family.

Haven't rtft, but my job was advertised as 'part time or full time', I said I wanted it part time (so I get to pick my kids up from school some days). It's a good professional job, I feel very lucky to be working part time and have a good work life balance.

Since I think a lot of the basic stuff is still the same. But can you answer - is there any reason why Holland can make part time as a norm work and we can’t, and Germany can make holding a woman’s job open for 3 years and we can’t. Because I think that’s mindset and nothing else.

We are creeping, creeping, creeping there. But for many office workers the basic 9-5, 5 days a week, is still the norm, as it was when my dad went out to work every day. Yes, there’s flexible working but still around that premise.

It just depends on the actual job!
The sector i work in is flexible and family friendly to a degree, but under recent changes they have introduced core hours 8am-6pm, and unfortunately everyone wants the school hours which would leave huge gaps at the start and end of the day, and be really difficult to accommodate during school holidays if everyone wants to use their leave up then (as they can only use 2 weeks at a time).

I don’t know the best solution because what has happened now is there are only a few full time people who get all the early/late/weekend shifts and it’s impossible attract part time workers to complete the team because they all want the same part time hours. I could give you 25 hours a week but they won’t be 9.30-2.30!

I took a job that was 25 hours a week when I began and my kids at school, and had no core hours, it was not a job share or in a team. That is what you need to look for, a service or company that is able to be flexible which may rule out retail/call centres and such like

MoMo there are definitely several issues here, but I don’t think it’s fair to say now is the best time to be a parent with working. They may not force women to work but the cost of living, extortionate house prices and low wages make it almost impossible not to. Unless you’re married to a very wealthy man.

With regards to working, that should say!

I work part-time three shortish days a week for a brilliant organisation that genuinely puts flexible working at the top of its agenda.

I'm experienced, educated to post grad level and this is a professional role. I didn't work for the org before taking this pt role, but feel incredibly lucky to have been given this opportunity.

My DCs are early teens now and walk to and from school. I tend to get home just after they do, so can help with homework/dinner. Holidays work well as they're old enough to be left for a few hours .

From this thread, there seems to be an assumption that only parents or carers want PT working. It concerns me that if more PT became the norm that non carers/parents would resent others for wanting to be part time. This was an issue for me a few years ago when I put in a flexible working request- I still wanted to work FT but really had to fight for it. I wanted to start half an hour earlier and finish half an hour earlier but a colleague with child kicked up a fuss and approved similar for her and declined mine, even though mine was requested first. Luckily, I had the unions support so got what I wanted. It makes me wonder how it would work in practice.

For those of you using holiday clubs over summer, have you looked into unpaid parental leave? If you can afford to take it, you can ask for several weeks off in the summer while your kids are small.

As to the OP, yanbu. I feel lucky in that I work very flexibly but have been with the firm over a decade.

@RiverTam
But can you answer - is there any reason why Holland can make part time as a norm work and we can’t, and Germany can make holding a woman’s job open for 3 years and we can’t.

Why should part time be the norm? What about people who like working 5 days a week? I love my job, and would be bored sat at home for 4 days a week. And surely cost of living would increase because everyone would go out to do things to keep busy?

I may drop to 4 days in the future, but not any less than that definitely

Why should part time be the norm? What about people who like working 5 days a week? I love my job, and would be bored sat at home for 4 days a week. And surely cost of living would increase because everyone would go out to do things to keep busy?

If everyone worked part time, surely you’d have more time with your DH, friends, parents? You could visit the cinema, take up pottery making, read a book, volunteer...there are so many things you could do that I don’t see how you could “get bored”.

Blair- you were complaining about the cost of living earlier on the thread, yet you now seem to be suggesting that ‘everyone’ works fewer hours! How does that work then, when you seem to want more money?

Lazy you haven’t answered the question. No-one has so far, either of those questions. You’ve just dodged it by saying it’s not what you’d want. I’m not interested right now in what you’d want. I’m interested in an answer to this question.

People who work part-time, ime, aren’t just sat around at home doing nothing on their non-work days. What a very strange notion.

I don't understand what this system is that meant it was easier to be a SAHM in the past than now.

My mum was a SAHM for my entire childhood (70s and 80s) and we lived off my dad's wages (plus child benefit, but no tax credits). However, we lived so much more simply and cheaply than many families would be prepared to accept now. Modest house in an average area, one old car, we didn't have a landline until I was 10, never went abroad, almost never ate out (a takeaway was a rare treat), no extracurricular activities for the kids, clothes were repaired by my mum, all home decor and repairs was done by my dad, heating was only allowed on for short periods of time. I could go on. Everything was about thrift and saving money.

If you want to live like that in 2018, there's nothing to stop you and presumably one wage would be enough to support such a lifestyle.

The current "system" is the best it's ever been for working parents, but I don't believe it's harder to have a SAHP now than it was in the past.

And I also don't understand the argument that cost of living makes it impossible for both parents not to work. For most poorer families I know, the cost of childcare makes it impossible for mothers to work.

All this anguish about working vs childcare is very much the preserve of the well off.

Yes, because doing fucking pottery will more than make up for living on the breadline in the wonderful world of pt being the norm. All those sad hours dd spent having fun in holiday clubs, when we could have volunteered at the foodbank after collecting our dinner from it. What was I thinking.

All this pottery work life bollocks is all well and good, provided we all can, and want to rely on husbands to be the main earner. It not only screws over lone parents, but all those families where only one parent is capable of working, and those who need two ft incomes. And those who might actually enjoy their jobs/ careers.

And I strongly object to any backwards step towards equality, and the ideal of a majority of pt jobs and some stereotyped pastimes is about as backwards as it gets.

Those posters who are holding up Holland as an example of what we should do- you do realise ML in Holland is about 16 weeks?

And as for Germany and 3 year career breaks: I posted upthread about the various impacts of this. The problem of recruiting consistent cover, When as an employer you’re obliged to Keep the post open for that long.

It’s about striking a balance that is workable to all sides. If you’re a small business owner, the impact of having staff taking extensive periods of time off, being unable to cover the job consistently during that time, and then having to try to accommodate whoever wishes to work only 10 til 2 term time only... there’s a tipping point when it becomes untenable and businesses go under. Or, employers will be put off recruiting women in case they promptly get pregnant and disappear off for 3 years. Oh and then perhaps pop back briefly before taking another 3 years off.

It’s all very well wanting to cherry pick what you see as the nice bits of various countries’ systems and policies. It’s a bit more complex when you actually explore the issue

It's harder I agree. I work part time and earn good money but I'd worked at my company 10 year full time beforehand. They wouldn't advertise my job as part time if I left, they'd make it full time. When you already work in a place they are under a bit of pressure to be flexible which went in my favour. My dh actually wants me to work somewhere else (low moral at my workplace etc...) but I know I wouldn't find the same hours for the same pay elsewhere so i’m stuck.

Part time is not the norm because so long as the working week is Mon - Fri, companies will always prefer employees who work those days.

It would be necessary to have ft workers just to manage the army of pt workers who expect the society to function and their company to wrap itself to their extremely specific and ever changing demands for working the minimum to give them that specific lifestyle they want. Because that is how the economy works. The world owes them their work life balance a living. And it tends to be women who want pt working, not the other half who constitutes the majority of the working population of males who have no choice but to support their families.