Kids accidentally 'poisoned'...

[staceyflack]

Aibu to be really concerned that ex's GF fed children raw elderberries in a smoothie. Her child was sick (as was she)... mine has had tummy ache for 2 days. It was a mistake of course... but still.

No. Just checked to see if they were the ones I thought they would be. The "trials" were flawed, easy to find explanations of the way they were flawed if anyone's interested. Incidentally- always view with care a paper published in a journal of alternative and complementary medicine- it may not be as unbiased as it should be.

Independent research and clinical trials have been conducted on many plants, including elderberry, and the health benefits clearly recorded.

Where do you think modern medicine started?

Aspirin, digoxin, atropine, morphine are all plant derivatives and many more besides.

I had no idea that elderberries should not be eaten raw.

Ah-or is there a difference between American and British elder trees?

yes, american black elder is poisonous, they contain cyanide, so they need to be cooked. English elder berries can be eaten raw, but there is a risk that they might cause nausea. Hence all the "I ate loads as a kid and never got sick" comments. Because the English and American versions are different.

There's a general rule that if a tree is covered in berries, the birds probably don't eat them so it's best not to eat them. I know holly berries are toxic.
I used to pop elderberries in my mouth all the time as well as there was a bush hanging over my swing. They didn't taste that great but I still kept eating them for some reason. I too never got sick.

“Aspirin, digoxin, atropine, morphine are all plant derivatives and many more besides.”

You notice that you don’t have to make your own infusions of those!

So are we agreed, now? English elderberries are fine to eat raw in moderation- American ones aren’t? Is that right?

Incidentally- always view with care a paper published in a journal of alternative and complementary medicine- it may not be as unbiased as it should be

I agree, however the least unbiased information is to be found in the medical journals.

Elderberries are fine to eat, raw or cooked. It's the seeds that are the problem. They are toxic, but usually pass through your gut unaffected by digestion, so do not release the toxin. When you make cordial or wine with them you strain out the seeds. Again, fine. But blended up in a smoothie, the machine must have cracked open the seeds and released the toxin.

There's a general rule that if a tree is covered in berries, the birds probably don't eat them so it's best not to eat them. I know holly berries are toxic

That's a terrible rule @LinoleumBlownapart

The trees and bushes that hold their fruit the longest tend to be the least appetising, but that's all part of their evolved dispersal strategy. The whole purpose of fruit is to be eaten by something, and the seeds dispersed.

Holly is eaten by birds, it's why I get so many holly seedlings under the fence where they drop out the birds sitting on the fence. Birds eat elderberries, the local pigeons even eat the young shoots of elder. Yew berries, widely regarded as very poisonous (but in fact it's only the seed, the fruit itself isn't) is eaten with relish by blackbirds in our garden. Even deadly nightshade seeds are dispersed by birds eating the berries.

If a tree is laden with berries it only means that the birds have a plentiful supply of a preferential food somewhere else.

The toxicity of many plants is very different depending whether you're a bird or mammal, and in many cases it's down to how they are eaten. Chewing (as most mammals do) risks breaking the seed (very bad from the plants point of view) and releasing any toxins inside whereas swallowing whole (like birds do) preserves the seed which passes straight through after the fleshy fruit is digested.

It's not a terrible rule. Any rule which says 'don't eat' something is a shame but at least the safe option.

My rule would be 'don't eat anything you've picked yourself until you've looked it up'. My parents used to make a great show of identifying the flat bottoms of bilberries as opposed to whatever poisonous berries it is that are round (and grow near bilberries!). I think making a show of looking stuff up on your phone before you eat it is fairly easy (maybe a blackberry in a no phone reception area is the exception).

I also had no clue about elderberries being toxic.

“And no - of course you don’t have to do any of these interesting, creative things which connect you to nature, or remind you of how privileged we have become in our modern society. But you can - if you open your mind a smidge“

Doing interesting creative things that connect us to nature and our past is wonderful. I love foraging and make lots of cordials and jams and jellies. What is not wonderful is saying that elderberries, which do make a soothing syrup that can help ease cold symptoms, particularly when taken hot, are a “powerful antiviral”.

@mookatron - it's a terrible rule because it relies on the whims of the appetite of birds. And the bigger risk is that some fool will always apply the opposing logic and assume that anything eaten by birds is safe (yew, holly, etc.). Your suggested rule of "don't eat it unless you're confident of what it is" is far better. Even if it's a shame that so few people have that knowledge.

There are so many useful types of berry all around us (elder, hawthorn, rowan, mirabelles, hedgerow apples, blackberry) that can make some fantastic foods and drinks if you have he knowledge to identify them and what to do with them. I learnt to identify the most common native hedgerow/woodland species at primary school. I read a recent social media post where someone couldn't identify blackberries!

But your post brings a more interesting question, is it better to look up the identification of a blackberry on an Apple or the identification of an apple on a Blackberry? And what manner of fruit is Android?

“Aspirin, digoxin, atropine, morphine are all plant derivatives and many more besides.”

You notice that you don’t have to make your own infusions of those!

No, but you could. What's your point? That botany and chemistry are best kept separate? Every time you put vinegar on a wasp sting or milk on nettle stings you're using basic chemistry. If aspirin were hellishly expensive, anyone with the knowledge to do so could make and assay their own and use it for medicinal purposes. The fact that most people don't have that knowledge is the cornerstone of the pharmaceutical industry. I have lots of medicinal recipes or uses of things growing in the garden, some of them well understood by modern science, some of them perhaps not. Most of the plant-based medicine now validated by clinical trials started off as family or community recipes, and the fact that not all knowledge of that sort is thus validated yet doesn't automatically invalidate it either. A lot of scientific research is driven by a desire to prove or disprove knowledge that is currently only anecdotal or clinically observed. Until then, you can mock all you like but it won't make a difference one way or the other to the efficacy.

Not helpful to you OP, but I’m astonished that anyone would be dim enough to eat elderberries.

Was enouaregd to eat them as a child when picking them for DGP home brewing. ( Haven't done same with my children but not because I thought they were in any way bad)

yes, american black elder is poisonous, they contain cyanide, so they need to be cooked. English elder berries can be eaten raw, but there is a risk that they might cause nausea. Hence all the "I ate loads as a kid and never got sick" comments. Because the English and American versions are different.

Interesting.

I was not denying that many effective medicines are plant based.

I was denying that elederberry syrup is a "powerful antiviral". Because it isn't.

I used to eat raw elderberries off our tree all the time as a kid. My dad would make wine with them. I was never once ill. My dad is an experienced Gardner and never told me not to 🤔. I’ve let my kids eat them too with no adverse affects. I had no idea they weren’t ok

If the English and American versions are different, is OP in the US?

Omg, DD was eating them today and I went to stop her but DM said it was fine! Lucky she ate one and went yuck....

Nope... Sussex!

I didn’t know this either

I fed some to dd today. Oops. I used to eat loads when I was a kid too. Apparently you need to do eat quite a few to get a tummy ache or vomit. It's the stems and seeds that are the actual problem.

They're not very different - our elder is sambucus nigra and the American one is sambucus canadensis, but some people think it's just a subspecies of s.nigra.

You can make stuff like your own morphine, but you'll probably be arrested if the authorities find out, at least if you're trying to process opium poppies. You might be all right with willow bark.

I had no idea.

Different, as it’s a syrup, but I’ve given both my young kids a spoon of elderberry (Sambucol) syrup every day for the past couple of years

Sounds like the girlfriend has got the recipe from this instagram influencer. She's just had her book recalled because the recipes are unsafe including elderberry smoothies and raw chocolate dipped mushrooms. Speak to the girlfriend about it because the book recommends foraging which could be very dangerous is she picks the wrong plants.

www.buzzfeednews.com/article/stephaniemcneal/fox-meets-bears-cookbook-has-been-recalled-by-the-publisher

www.buzzfeednews.com/article/stephaniemcneal/instagram-star-cookbook-recipes-raw-mushrooms?utm_source=dynamic&utm_campaign=bfrelatedlinks

Android to look up a goo(gle)seberry?