How could they do this?

[brizzledrizzle]

You're on the verge of losing everything - but you don’t understand why http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-42789610

This should not be allowed to happen, this is supposed to be a civilised country. How could they do this to somebody

People who have health issues - whether physical or mental - can have others advocate on their behalf.

Where do they find these wonderful people? If you lack the capability or the confidence to access the system then how do you find out?

Take this example, the woman I spoke to the other day - she's had m/h issues for years, has lost her job as a result, has no family, I only got talking to her because she was sitting in the park crying. Her GP doles out the tablets and offers no support and she doesn't know where to go or what to do. There is only so much I can do to help and I don't know the system enough to get her the right support.

People who are initially denied PIP for example can get the decision overturned on appeal; I recently came across a case where someone had been scored 0 in the first and 18(!) in the appeal. That shows you how totally subjective and arbitrary these assessments can be.

Mummyoflittledragon Do claim for PIP , if you don't it doesn't actually make anyone else who needs it better off. If you want to donate it I think give it to a worthwhile cause direct.

I claimed PIP last month and was surprised all I needed to do was make a call and fill in the form they sent me. It wasn't that hard and I didn't send much in the way of evidence just some really old doctors' letters that I already had that were about something else but alluded to my disability. I was awarded more than I expected to be. I'd heard the horror stories too but clearly it doesn't have to be a horrible process.

There are going to be vulnerable people that the system fails horribly the way it is. Adult social services are letting people with actual Learning Disabilities negotiate there own way through the maze. My acquantaince with LD has had her social worker withdrawn from her and she's been given a sheet of numbers to call that are things like charities and CAB. This is a person who went to special school, can't use a computer or manage her own finances!

20 per cent illiteracy or v low level literacy in our lovely country. Lets spend less on education

Benefits aren't that hard to claim Ever tried?

Can only apply online so need a computer/tablet etc, internet access and the knowledge to use them. I help out at a job club, and many people do not know how to use a computer, no money to pay for internet access and no idea how to navigate the byzantine world of Universal Credit. We volunteers are highly educated, had high status jobs etc and we struggle to get all the information needed to apply for people who come to us for help. (We also help write CVs, job application forms, letters etc). Until you stand in the world of the poor, m/h issues, illiterate then be careful of glib statements. Money swindled out of DWP is but a drop in the ocean to that swindled by tax evaders, city whizzes etc.

This has really upset me. I know this happens and it’s awful, this man’s story is really heartbreaking. It’s all very well saying “there’s help available to people” but it’s so complicated and if they don’t tell people, listen to their circumstances, treat them as the valuable human they are, this IS what happens. And much worse.

People who have health issues - whether physical or mental - can have others advocate on their behalf Yes... often the same people who are/were assessors, or even the 'job coach' who never seems to tell you what you need to know!

An anecdote, if you will: I am a fully functioning adult, left my job, set up my own business. I researched JSA and then the support for new businesses. I understood it all, knew what he correct timings were and what the various sign on options were.

Go tot eh Job Centre, went through 3 hours of extensive Q+A session and... because I answered "I will need some bookeeping packages, haven't used them before" I was sent on the IT course! Now... I had only just finished telling them exactly how IT literate I am (used to work in IT) but once that button is pressed, you have to go - or you get sanctioned! So off I went...

... the woman patrolling the room (she couldn't teach anyone as the list of things we had to do was about 5 things long, do A, do B etc) was an ex colleague... a real IT teacher... she fell about laughing t see me. Then reality hit, those tasks should have taken about 5 minutes for me to do. Half an hour later I finally got the machine to admit it really could send and email, and I could escape. Those machines were out of the ark, if they were your only experience of computing you wouldn't bother.

THEN... I signed on.. he asked me if I had been seeking work. I looked puzzled, no, I was setting up my own business, JSA for 6 months then NEA, as I was entitled to. No, no, no... you MUST look for work - or you will be sanctioned. That continued until, rather than be sanctioned, I signed off!

Later I signed back on again, to get the NEA, as you have to be on JSA to get the advice etc. Oh god! Another chocolate teapot was the NEA specialist! I complained, he continued to get it all wrong (despite the tick list he was working from he couldn't understand why I couldn't give him my business plan in week 1, it is there at week 3....) and threatened, yet again, to sanction me.

Thankfully I think others noticed how much trouble he was causing and his replacement was fully competent.

So... if I with degrees, research skills and a clear plan, had so much trouble getting the people who are supposed to support you to actually do a competent job how does someone who has no bloody idea get the right information?

The system is ludicrous. Even the motivated, pleasant, competent staff can't always help you though it as it is designed to put barriers in your way! We should ALL be ashamed of how our society treats the truly needy!

But you phone, or get someone else to phone. The problem is people expecting the DWP to be psychic and know why they haven't turned up for their scheduled appointment.

I think you are making an assumption here that people are missing appointments and not saying in advance or at the soonest possible moment if advance isn’t possible. Phoning in advance is not particularly helpful if the response you get is ‘tough, it’s non negotiable, you’ll be sanctioned if you don’t turn up’.

I’m sure some claims are simple, but the rules are sometimes needlessly complex and the people dealing with claims don’t always know them as well as they should. It’s quite possible (and in fact likely) to get different answers to the same question from different people in the same department on different days. And usually worse if you are trying to deal with two differently departments. And knowing how the system is supposed to work is no help at all if you end up with a ‘computer says no’ attitude from the people you are trying to deal with.

I can only imagine that all that is far worse if LD mean that you find it difficult to understand the system.

People who are initially denied PIP for example can get the decision overturned on appeal; I recently came across a case where someone had been scored 0 in the first and 18(!) in the appeal. That shows you how totally subjective and arbitrary these assessments can be

BIL has combat related PTSD, he was turned down the the first time for PIP. As was his friend who returned from a tour in Afghan with one arm. He was assessed as “fit to work” at that point despite having 3 recent amputations and no prosthetics.

The people who smugly declare that the benefits system is fit for purpose make me so angry. It is not, in any way fit for purpose.

The government have deliberately made it as difficult as possible, as confusing and intimidating as possible to claim benefits. They also promised to ringfence disability benefits in their “cuts and sanctions” drive. They didn’t.

The fuck is wrong with people if they think people should go without anything for a fucking month for not going to one appointment? As a PP said, if you didn’t turn up for work for one day you’d be docked a day, not your entire wage.

But it’s ok to sneer at anyone on benefits isn’t it? it’s not by the way, and I hope all of you who are have a huge savings account because there but for the grace of god and all that

Another example: if you want to claim UC you have to attend an interview at the nearest Job Centre. In my town, that’s 20 miles away and costs nearly £10 to get to by bus. That’s a lot of money if, for example, you’re homeless and sleeping in a tent!

From what I can gather the bottom line is that everyone should be working regardless of ability mh learning difficulties etc or anything else and if you can’t then your family should support you and absolutely no one should be claiming benefits of any kind
That’s where all this is going
It’s appalling

Heatherjayne1972 that exactly it! You’re right, it is utterly appalling.

The lack of empathy or even basic understanding from so many people makes me sad, and very very angry.

The whole system is dehumanising, humiliating and designed to confuse and intimidate people.

Even people with disabilities, with learning disabilities, or with no other option than to be on benefits.

I agree we should question and challenge when appropriate, but let's get fact right.

You do not need a computer to fill in forms - there is the option to hand write them.

Curious why should the state fund you whilst you set up your business? You do need to be looking for and doing a job.

Benefits are simple until you have to claim some. Cross all your fingers smug ones, it's closer than you think.For everyone..

to Claim UC you have to be able to log on very regularly to their website. They don’t send letters and only occasionally send an email to tell you to check for a message on their system. Ds (18) has just started getting UC - he has severe learning disability with Autism- he cannot read or understand the system ( well I can’t either).. so I have to manage all this for him- take him to appointments etc. We got a message for an appointment at short notice ( so I had to juggle work and other commitments) to get him there only to find it was a mistake. Another time I had an appointment to show ds sick note ( from the Gp to say he cannot work) only to be turned away because ds was not with me even though I was told only I needed to bring in the fit note. It’s all a bit hit and miss.

I am not stupid and claiming UC is not simple. I have had staff unable to answer questions and have had different answers. There are deadlines built in (like things which must be entered on system within one day) for which I can see no possible policy rationale. Some aspects are poorly thought out.

I mistakenly got one timescale wrong and had a warning.

My worst moments are mistakes made by DWP staff. Simple things like one made two appointments on system for me. I flagged this up, attended the one we had agreed, but still got sent a reminder for the other. Simple human error can happen but the huge fear of a sanction means such errors are fraught with anxiety.

I dread to think how some people cope.

The ongoing real time entering of data might not be set up to catch people out (hmmm). Nonetheless, the system should not involve such a ridiculous level of admin that it will routinely trip people up....and that is an undeniable reality.

I have only encountered nice staff and with two we googled together to read through policies on claiming childcare. I've been lucky to deal with staff who are compassionate. It's still hugely stressful.

I like many will have to learn to live with the anxiety. I expect it never goes.

I had to ring from hospital once because I had a kidney infection. I was having a phone conversation with a temperature of 39°. If I hadn't they'd have stopped my money.

You're so caring sound.

It is true that people tell you different things all the time at the Job Centre. I am well educated and articulate and could have been sanctioned if I had not insisted on having recorded on my file the advice given to me, that I was sure was wrong - it was. In terms of emails, I was told that a condition of receiving JSA was that you have an email address. Don't know if this is legally the case, but tough for anyone who can not use a computer.

I had mine stopped when I was in ICU and unconscious. Luckily the hospital social worker stepped in because I had young children, if he hadn't I would have lost my home.

These examples are awful.

The trouble is people do take the piss out of the system and in order to try and stop that innocent people are be suffering more.

Something did have to be done to stop people using the system like a joke and I'm not sure what the solution is that would prevent piss taking and leave everyone else alone so they have gone for the next best thing - punish everyone. It's awful and as a single mum on UC I fully understand how down trodden the system makes you feel but until someone comes up with a better solution I think this is the best one atm.

What does need to change is the attitude of the people who are supposed to be helping you who make you feel like your on trial.

I couldn't ring in advance, I didn't know I was going to black out and be taken by ambulance to hospital.

To those comparing it to having a job - generally HR Departments tell you one thing no matter who you speak to. At Job Centres staff tell you different things. I can only assume that training of staff is very poor.

PerfectlySymmetricalButtocks Did you not have discharge papers to use as evidence that you where in hospital?