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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Contact with older children after absence WIBU?

122 replies

Beckasaur · 28/07/2018 20:52

Emma and Dave (not their real names) have DD aged 10 and DS aged 12. They split 5 years ago. Dave has not seen the DCs for 3 years. The 2 years he did seem them he was inconsistent. Dave reckons Emma made it too difficult and Emma reckons Dave was messing her about and that once she put boundaries in place he bailed. Both have new partners and are in long term relationships with those partners. Dave pays maintenance in line with the CSA.

Dave now wants to start seeing the DCs. Emma wants Dave to write first and explain and say sorry for disappearing for the last few years and to write for a bit to show he is committed to seeing them. Dave feels they know and remember who he is and although he accepts the memories they have of him are both good and bad he doesn't want to write he just wants to arrange to see them. DS has said he doesn't want to see Dave. DD has said shell would like to see him. Dave doesnt only want to see one of them.

I am friends with both Emma and Dave, and frankly am a bit fed up of being stuck in the middle and trying to explain the opposing point of view. I can see why both of them are having the stance they are in part, but equally think they both being idiots. I am getting splinters form sitting on the fence on this, so thought I would put it to the MN jury ......

OP posts:
PrettyLovely · 28/07/2018 22:32

"His reactions are more about not "bowing down" to Emma I am sure I said that early on. "

Its so funny you say that, thats exactly what my ex used to say about me when I tried to put things in place to stop him repeatedly letting my kids down and disappearing for a year at a time.
It was always that "I was difficult " "he wasnt allowed to see the kids" "he wasnt bowing down to me " after I asked him to sign a contact agreement stating when he would see them. I made arrangements for him to visit them in a contact centre, Again "he wasnt bowing down to me"
I was trying to protect my kids, Which is exactly what your friend is doing.

Also the letter thing emma has suggested isnt a stupid idea I was also advised to do the same at one point, its a form of contact for kids and is actually a really good way of steadily easing into contact again.

gottastopeatingchocolate · 28/07/2018 22:40

It sounds like it has become more about winning than meeting the needs of the children.
At 10 and 12 they would be listened to in Family Court, and should be listened to by their parents. "Both or none" is selfish and unnecessary. If they can't agree to go with the wishes of the children, perhaps you could suggest professional mediation, rather than letting them place you in that position?

Valanice1989 · 28/07/2018 22:41

I am really good friends with his new partner and I would be upset to lose that friendship if all this blows up.

What are her thoughts on the fact that Dave refuses to see his daughter unless he can see his son as well? I would be appalled if my partner behaved this way.

Rainbowqueeen · 28/07/2018 22:43

Dave is a dick

Emma is doing the right thing.

Those kids need someone in control who has their best interests at heart. From what you have said that person is Emma

Dave cares only for himself. Shame on him

Original poster
Beckasaur · 28/07/2018 22:52

Honestly? She supportive of him. Even calling him an idiot gets her hackles up.

The trouble is when hes sitting in front of you giving his reasons, he sounds really reasonable and it makes perfect sense.

He says ..... its important for DS to see him - contact is in DSs best interests. DS will not reply to letters as he views his dad negatively. The only way to change that view is for him to spend time with his dad so that he can see dad has good points also. He cant see just DD because last time it caused hostility between DD and DS when DD wanted to see him and DS didnt. He doesnt want to come between the siblings, so its important that Emma makes them both come. Face to face contact is essential as the only way to replace DS negative memories is to create real positive ones. Its also important given he understands why DS might feel abandoned that he doesnt abandon DS again by only seeing DD. Also when DSs baby brother is born, if DS isnt seeing him he might feel replaced and it is important that that is not the case. Him and Emma allowed their personal feelings of each other to get the better of them last time.. They need to put that behind them and work together in the best interests of the children and that is for both children to see their father and his family

OP posts:
Original poster
Beckasaur · 28/07/2018 22:55

Pretty that is interesting to hear. That is how Dave describes it, almost to a T. He has got to stand up to her else she will just put more obstacles in his way, and he cant allow her to do that to his kids. He has to stand up to her. .... for them.

OP posts:
PerfectPenquins · 28/07/2018 22:58

God his speach sounds utterly vomit inducing it’s so onvious he is saying the right things! Is your friend so stupid she can’t see that he could have done a lot more to see his kids! I wonder what she will say when he is saying the same crap about her to another gullible fool?

cheesydoesit · 28/07/2018 22:59

He sounds fucking horrendous. I agree with PP, it will be a pattern repeated with your new friend too.

AWomanIsAnAdultHumanFemale · 28/07/2018 22:59

so its important that Emma makes them both come.

Nah! Emma is seeing her kids, she’s fullfilling her obligations to them. If dave thinks both his kids should see him then he should make them. Not make Emma do his dirty work.

twattymctwatterson · 28/07/2018 23:00

Op Dave is a cunt of the highest order and the fact that you know he's not seen his kids for 3 years and is refusing to see his DD to hold his DS to ransom and yet are still friends with him frankly reflects poorly on you

Original poster
Beckasaur · 28/07/2018 23:02

penguins but it all sounds so sensible doesnt it? and then you add in all the guff about how Emma blocked him and made life difficult and how for his own mental health he had to step away etc etc and you come away with him having bent over himself backwards to try and do his best and Emma .. mean old Emma ... just wanted him out of her life to raise the kids with her new partner.

OP posts:
UpstartCrow · 28/07/2018 23:03

Seriously, as other pp have said there is a script for this.

DS sees his Dad in a negative light because he was unreliable when he had access then disappeared without an explanation.
He could have been writing to his kids for the last 2 years and had that relationship with them. DS feels abandoned because he was abandoned.

Emma put boundaries in place because she had to deal with the fallout from her kids being messed about by a flaky Dad.

Dave is playing a game called 'Why Don’t You – Yes But'.
www.ericberne.com/games-people-play/why-dont-you-yes-but/

In transactional analysis terms, WDYYB is played Parent to Child, with Dave choosing the position of the child.

Aeroflotgirl · 28/07/2018 23:06

He is a deadbeat dad, of course he comes across as reasonable, what he is not telling you is the what he is not telling you or is conveniently forgetting, the whole story. It is always the psycho ex, mm as ex typical abusive man.. he has to prove himself and cannot just waltz in and out of their life when it suits. That is what Emma is trying to protect, her kids.

cheesydoesit · 28/07/2018 23:06

I know a man who presents himself as a distraught victim of parent alienation who has fought in court for contact. He posts all the right things on Facebook, everyone is convinced he is a salt of the earth character but those that are close to the situation know how manipulative and selfish he really is. He was awarded contact then after one meeting told his ex he didn't want to continue it. For most of these men having a relationship with their children isn't the end goal, it's to fuck over their exes, to humiliate them and remind them they are in control.

cheesydoesit · 28/07/2018 23:10

Forgot to say he obviously still hasn't mentioned his rejection of his child on social media though! Still posts wistful birthday salutations to him every year for the 'likes'. Hmm

Original poster
Beckasaur · 28/07/2018 23:10

twatty My instinctive responsive to that was well you are being overly harsh, I can be friends with him and disagree with some of his behaviour. However its made me think back to another comment about why Dave gets called stupid and Emma controlling. Why given that I dont accept his version of Emma, and I think poorly of him for walking way as I KNOW thats what he did, have I just let that go when if Emma had done it I would think terribly of her and it likely would have ended our friendship?

This has actually helped me clarify my thoughts in quite an interesting way.

OP posts:
rainingcatsanddog · 28/07/2018 23:13

He's not thinking about the children.

Emma can't manhandle him into a car and force him into and nor should he do that.

It's not as simple as replacing bad memories with good. It is understandable that one child might be angrier than their sibling. Not seeing Dad is a good way to protect himself from future heartbreak.

The children are older than when he left. They are capable of reasoned logical thought and their opinions would hold sway legally. He remembers much smaller kids and doesn't realise what 12 and 10 year olds are like. This is not a toddler tantrum over not being allowed to run in the road. The children went through a traumatic event and Dave is unreasonable to think that his son can be coaxed into getting over it. They are young individuals with different personalities, memories and needs. Dave seems to see this like giving a child some ice cream so they forget the bitter taste of medicine. It's not like that at all.

The baby is coming whatever the older ones decide. The fact that he is re establishing contact when he's expecting a new child is a major red flag imo. It smacks of trying to impress the gf or going through the motions so that he can close the door later and blame Emma. Regular contact with the dd could help establish himself as someone making tiny amends but this smacks of a cliched timing to reach out. Why hasn't he gone down the legal route?

autumnleaf1 · 28/07/2018 23:13

Dave sounds selfish and controlling. These sorts of people are well practiced in making others see their tainted point of view and making others believe they are the victim. If i couldn't see my children, i can't imagine ever stopping trying. Inconsistent and then nothing doesn't sound much like a loving parent.

Aeroflotgirl · 28/07/2018 23:13

Poor kids, poor Emma. I would stay out of it, and let them sort it out tbh.

gindrinkingmarypoppins · 28/07/2018 23:14

Dave is being a complete knob. Why risk his relationship with his DD because his DS doesn't want to see him at the click of his fingers?

Any decent father would write the sodding letters, would do anything in fact, to rebuild his relationship with his children. I'm not sure he truly understands what it is to be a parent.

Aeroflotgirl · 28/07/2018 23:15

I agree raining, either now that baby is coming he has thought about his other kids, and wants to play happy families when it suits him, or the gf has encouraged him to make contact with his kids, so that baby will know their brother and sister.

Aeroflotgirl · 28/07/2018 23:18

As quickly as he establishes contact with his kids, he seems like the type to drop them all of a sudden when he gets bored, he just does not understand the responsibility of being a parent and what it entails. He just sees them as toys to play with and put down when he wants. Emma is preventing him from playing with his toys.

RoboJesus · 28/07/2018 23:18

Dave is a deadbeat and Emma is being 100% reasonable. If he took her to court they would side with her. If he loved his kids (well he wouldn't have abandoned them in the first place but anyway)he'd do anything to see them, writing a few letters is literally nothing

RabbitsAreTasty · 28/07/2018 23:19

Maybe find out from Emma when Dave began to be controlling. It often starts in pregnancy. New gf will need a good friend as Dave's controlling behaviour ramps up.

I suspect the gf has her own suspicions that something isn't right. She is pregnant. She must really really needs to believe that whatever bad behaviours are showing up are not "real" so she presses for him to push for contact because she needs this as proof he's not a controlling deadbeat dad. Her over reactions to him being called an idiot when clearly he has been an idiot make me even more suspicious that she's fighting the creeping realisation that she's fucked her life by getting pregnant with a controlling man. She wouldn't be the first.

I bet a lot of women here will tell you that their ex made half hearted attempts at contact when new woman was pregnant, all of which fizzled out because the ex wasn't genuinely interested, the is just doing it to keep the new one quiet and distracted from her new reality.

RabbitsAreTasty · 28/07/2018 23:22

If you defend Emma and Dave is indeed controlling you should expect him to make damn sure new gf drops you as a friend as soon as he can make it happen.