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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Contact with older children after absence WIBU?

122 replies

Beckasaur · 28/07/2018 20:52

Emma and Dave (not their real names) have DD aged 10 and DS aged 12. They split 5 years ago. Dave has not seen the DCs for 3 years. The 2 years he did seem them he was inconsistent. Dave reckons Emma made it too difficult and Emma reckons Dave was messing her about and that once she put boundaries in place he bailed. Both have new partners and are in long term relationships with those partners. Dave pays maintenance in line with the CSA.

Dave now wants to start seeing the DCs. Emma wants Dave to write first and explain and say sorry for disappearing for the last few years and to write for a bit to show he is committed to seeing them. Dave feels they know and remember who he is and although he accepts the memories they have of him are both good and bad he doesn't want to write he just wants to arrange to see them. DS has said he doesn't want to see Dave. DD has said shell would like to see him. Dave doesnt only want to see one of them.

I am friends with both Emma and Dave, and frankly am a bit fed up of being stuck in the middle and trying to explain the opposing point of view. I can see why both of them are having the stance they are in part, but equally think they both being idiots. I am getting splinters form sitting on the fence on this, so thought I would put it to the MN jury ......

OP posts:
BoneyBackJefferson · 28/07/2018 21:39

Beckasaur

With the baby information we will no doubt get the 'wants to look good to his GF' posts

The truth -as it seems to me- is that neither is prepared to put the children first.

UpstartCrow · 28/07/2018 21:40

So Dave didn't maintain his relationship with you. Are you partly to blame for that?

It sounds like Dave's idea of access was when he felt like it, and Emma was the one that had to deal with the impact on the kids so set boundaries.
Emma wants ground rules because she's been through it all once before.

nocoolnamesleft · 28/07/2018 21:42

It does sound like both parents are putting their own wishes, and egos, ahead of the needs of the children. Childish.

bastardkitty · 28/07/2018 21:46

Dave is a controlling wanker. He doesn't take any responsibility for his own mess and he's in denial. Poor kids. Not hard to see why Emma wouldn't want the disruption to family life given that he hasn't bothered for a couple of years and now wants to call the shots.

Hygge · 28/07/2018 21:47

One child has said they want to see him. They should both respect that child's wishes.

One child has said they don't want to see him. They both need to respect that child as well.

Dave would be an idiot to refuse to see one child if he can't see the other. Having an 'all or nothing' attitude at this point is a very bad idea.

PrettyLovely · 28/07/2018 21:48

Beckasaur you dont sound like a very good friend to Emma, You obviously dont know how upsetting it is for children to have a father that comes in and out when he feels like it.
Even Daves behaviour now shows he doesnt give a shit about the kids.
Emma was correct in placing ground rules.
You cannot and should not come in and out of a kids life it fucks them up.
Now Dave has created another child when he couldnt even be consistent with his first two. Those poor kids and that poor baby!
I think you should be a bit more sympathetic to your friend instead of saying she used her kids as a weapon when she obviously simply had to set some ground rules.
Of course he should be jumping through hoops he hasnt seen them for years!
Kids arent toys you can pick up and put down when you feel like it they have feelings.

user546425732 · 28/07/2018 21:49

Dave could write and say that he feels sorry that he has not been able to see the children and that he has spoken to Emma and is now very keen to be able to see them.

Beckasaur · 28/07/2018 21:52

Boney you are probably right with how you see it. I dont think its about looking good for his GF. They have been together 2years ish. The pregnancy is probably the factor, although whether that is him or her I dont know.

Upstart A bit of both. I was team Emma when they split up. It was acrimonious when they split and our hobby which used to be once a week ended up being split so they didnt have to be at it together. I often couldn't go to both due to my DSs and tended to go to the ones with Emma, just because the people there were my closer friends. We then by nature of the hobby (role playing) sort of drifted into 2 groups. I then became friends with his new girlfriend through my horses and then re-met Dave through her if that makes sense. I got dragged into it because when I realised who her boyfriend was I realised the ex which was making his life difficult was Emma and I said i didnt think it was quite that straight forward. I should have just kept my trap shut!

They are both being idiots although writing this thread has made me fall off the fence back onto Emmas side.

OP posts:
ProudThrilledHappy · 28/07/2018 21:56

IMO Dave sounds like a cunt. First he used Emma as an excuse for not seeing the kids, now he is using Ds as an excuse to not see Dd.
They will be better off without him to he honest.

If he actually gives a toss about his kids he needs to show he is willing to prioritise what they want, not what suits his ego

garethsouthgatesmrs · 28/07/2018 21:57

Dave doesnt only want to see one of them

this is the worst part of it. His daughter wants to see him but he won't see her. That shows this is not about actual relationships it's about point scoring and proving points.

The letter writing thing is complete bollocks (although probably motivated by a desire to protect her children)and if he really cared he would take it to court but clearly he doesn't.

Aeroflotgirl · 28/07/2018 21:59

Emma is totally right. He behaving like a dick, messing the kids about, probably not showing up for contact, E!ma quite rightly puts her foot down, and has boundaries he does not like it and buggers off for 3 years. Now he wants to waltz back into their lives, as if nothing has happened. Being a good father is not only about providing, but being there for them,being consistent and putting them first.

He has to prove to them that he is a good father, his unwillingnrss not to write letters apologising is a big red flag. He is an entitled dick who hasn't changed. Emma is comp!etely right, it is her who has to pick up the pieces of Dave's behaviour, she can't just buggers off.

UpstartCrow · 28/07/2018 22:00

Why is it bollocks? Its a suggestion we are given when we try to get help to sort out the mess left by an absent parent. Its not a bad idea in itself.

AnoukSpirit · 28/07/2018 22:02

Dave sounds extremely controlling.

He doesn't want to see the kids to rebuild a relationship with them; he wants to see them to win. Otherwise - even before factoring in the 2 years of flakiness and 3 years of complete absence - his first concern would be meeting their needs and avoiding harm. He'd be jumping at the chance of seeing his daughter, rather than using her as a tool for leverage. That's sick.

I dont reckon either of them behaved without reproach in the whole thing

I find it a little weird how you keep going out of your way to give examples of how Emma failed to be perfect in all of this. Can you name a perfect human for us?

Just because she may not have been perfect, doesn't mitigate or excuse his shitty behaviour.

she felt very powerless in their relationship and I think being in control sometimes was more important than trying to work together

You know this is not a description of a normal situation, right?

If this is the kind of controlling, manipulative behaviour he's happy to share with the world, how bad do you think he was behind closed doors for Emma to have felt so powerless she clutched at any means she could to bring some semblance of control back into her life.

Which, by the way, is an extremely common response from women suffering coercive control at the hands of their partner. As humans we need to feel we have some control over our lives, and when this is taken away we do desperately claw at anything else.

People who like taking control away from other people are abusers (whether you think they look like a monster or not).

Asking for initial contact by letters after abandoning them in the past seems a sensible safeguard to ensure he isn't just using them as a control tactic (which he seems to be given his reactions) and that he won't get their hopes up only to let them down and hurt them again. He has trust he needs to earn and commitment to demonstrate, and being a controlling arsehole isn't going to achieve that.

You've even said you'd expect courts to suggest the same, yet then try to make out Emma is being unreasonable for wanting this step first. Why? Emma doesn't seem to be able to do anything right in your eyes.

He doesn't sound stupid, he sounds abusive.

Before you leap to his defence that you've never seen him be abusive - what you describe here is a form of abuse, and unless you are actually Emma or Dave then you have no idea how he behaved behind closed doors, but the way he made Emma feel strongly points to him having been even worse.

Why is it you think Emma is being an idiot for wanting to protect these children from being hurt again? Children don't just shrug off being abandoned by a parent. It has a lasting impact.

She seems to be acting in their best interests - what would you have her do, force the son to see his father against his will and put them both at risk of being abandoned again with no safeguards and no attempt to heal the lasting damage caused by Dave?

I have no trouble seeing why you'd call him an idiot for trying to use children as a way to exert control over Emma and to make himself feel powerful.

There doesn't seem to be anything Emma could do that you would consider acceptable, other than capitulating to his demands and enforcing contact on an unwilling child. Are you Dave?

IceCreamFace · 28/07/2018 22:03

Since Dave hasn't seen his kids for 3 years (even if Emma was difficult he does seem to have given up very easily) and one of his DC already doesn't want to see him the letters don't sound like a bad idea. The rights and wrongs of the rest of it aren't that relevant. Just right the letters and start building bridges.

Without knowing Emma I have no idea if she's being protective of her kids after Dave abandoned them for three years or whether she's trying to be a gate keeper to her kids because she doesn't like Dave. Either way Dave should just write the letters - show some consistency and then he'll have every right to see his kids (assuming they want to see him).

Aeroflotgirl · 28/07/2018 22:07

Emma is the oneicki g up the pieces of Dave's messing about with contact, she is there for the kids, whereas Dave just buggers off and expects to pick up where he left off. She wants to protect he kids from his crap, as it looks like he will do the same again. He is a deadbeat dad.

Op if you don't want to be involved, don't. Tell them you are out of it, and do not wish to be involved.

PerfectPenquins · 28/07/2018 22:08

So he’s having another child before sorting his relationship out with his first kids? Selfish isn’t a strong enough word for it and I’m sorry but your other friend is a fool having his baby - he has demonstrated his lack of parenting care and she is lapping up his lies. She will end up paying though in the end when he does it again.

AnoukSpirit · 28/07/2018 22:10

Oh, wow, Dave has also been telling his new girlfriend stories about his "nightmare ex"? Did he call her crazy too? Or just unreasonable and controlling? Claim she was stopping him from seeing the children all these years? And new girlfriend really feels sorry for him, I expect?

Textbook abuser. He's not even original. Check out www.freedomprogramme.co.uk.

I bet his current dramatics are just to back up his sob story about the evil ex stopping him from seeing his kids. He doesn't give a fuck about those poor kids. Now he can walk away and blame it all on her again. "I tried but she wouldn't let me, she's turned them against me, our courts are biased against fathers."

How many of the negative things you had to say about Emma are based on what Dave has told you?

Graphista · 28/07/2018 22:11

Has Dave even considered how his kids are gonna feel about the new baby? I doubt it.

I don't see that Emma did anything wrong. She's been the one picking up the pieces when Dave's let the kids down, rightly set boundaries to protect the DC and Dave is too concerned with his wants to address the kids needs.

It sounds like the new gf has swallowed Dave's bs and believes it's all Emma's fault, fallen for the 'crazy ex won't let me see my kids' crap! More fool her.

Thedutchwife · 28/07/2018 22:11

I agree with pretty

I’m not surprised Emma has requested what she has, you can’t waltz back in after years trying to control the situation

Both kids or no kids? What a dick. And it’s telling that you see that it’s Emma trying to control the situation

If I was Emma I’d push for contact Center. Always cuts the wheat from the chaff.

ChristmasFluff · 28/07/2018 22:16

Yup. agree with all the people who have posted about Dave's controllingness. I'd totally be reconsidering my recently renewed friendship with him if I were you. Be awful to end up a flying monkey, wouldn't it?

Beckasaur · 28/07/2018 22:17

Anouk No I am not Dave or Emma.

I havent really thought about it in the way you have described it .. which is ironic given my ex was violent and controlling ... His reactions are more about not "bowing down" to Emma I am sure I said that early on. I dont think Emma should be perfect at all. She had it very tough and did the best she could. Could she have been more reasonable back then - yes probably - but you are right I do not know all the ins and outs of their relationship. I know shes normally alot less stubborn than she is when dealing with Dave, so perhaps you are right, she is clinging to control because she never had any with him.

I am trying so hard not to take sides this time as I am really good friends with his new partner and I would be upset to lose that friendship if all this blows up. I dont have many "true" friends, but she is one. Perhaps that is making me give too much credence to Daves side.

OP posts:
NynaeveSedai · 28/07/2018 22:20

The way Dave is behaving now and has done for the past 3 years indicates what kind of father he is. Firmly team Emma.

Valanice1989 · 28/07/2018 22:24

I would also say which I probably should have said in the first post Daves new partner is pregnant

I hate to say it, but as soon as I read your OP I suspected something like this! "I want to see both kids or none" is, frankly, such a pathetic excuse to turn down contact with your own daughter. It sounds like he got in touch to try to show his partner that he's not such a bad father after all, and now he's latched onto a way to blame someone else (his own twelve-year-old son) for not taking it any further.

AWomanIsAnAdultHumanFemale · 28/07/2018 22:29

DS has said he doesn't want to see Dave. DD has said shell would like to see him. Dave doesnt only want to see one of them.

What an arrogant prick. Who the hell does he think he is that he gets to decide that someone has to spend time with him when they don’t want to? Does he think the contact is about him? Clearly he does or he wouldn’t have Stopped and started to suit himself. Newsflash dave, contact isn’t for you, it’s for the child and if the child doesn’t want it then tells you a big bright neon flashing message.

Thedutchwife · 28/07/2018 22:32

Why are women seen as controling when they start putting measures in place to protect her kids.

He fucked off
She asked for a letter to reintroduce him self. He could have put a lot in there.
He said no, both kids or no kids.

She is seen as controlling
He just gets called stupid Hmm