... about "natural birth" and "your body knows what to do"?

[ParsnipsAreTheDevil]

I keep seeing the whole "don't worry your body knows what to do" thing thrown at pregnant women and it was a massive part of the hypnobirthing course I did before
DS was born (he's 2 now). When it came to it it turned out my body didn't have a bloody clue what to do. In labour for 3 days, wasn't dilating, emergency c section and we both got sepsis. Felt like a massive failure afterwards thanks to the massive emphasis on natural birth and my body categorically NOT knowing what to do?

Aibu that what we should be saying to pregnant women is to keep an open mind about birth? I've met a few women since who had very similar experiences to me. Breathe the fecking baby out my arse.

Shovingleopard it's true. They are taught to apply scientific method when analysing research papers almost by rote when studying at medical school, as opposed to developing the skills to make scientific and statistical analyses of their own when faced with an academic paper.

It is odd speaking to doctors about scientific method. It's more like speaking to a philosopher about it than to someone who spent 5+ years studying a scientific discipline.

One of the things that can result from this attitude is an inability to understand why what is best on a population level is not necessarily best for the individual. And that is pretty basic stuff.

Bingo fuckedoff, so very many seem unable to understand that what applies to a majority of a population is not guaranteed to necessarily apply to any one individual. Sometimes the older Drs are better than the younger ones, I find. It's as if they have retained some of the 'art' of doctoring, whereas the younger ones don't always seem to remember they are dealing with individual humans.

“But I think there is a lot of woo woo around that makes women believe they can control which experience they have if only they can get themselves into the correct hypnotic state“

Hypnosis is about managing the woman’s response to the events of labour and reducing fear in order to optimise the hormonal cascade.

It’s not about controlling the labour itself.

Re: ‘woo woo’ - the least scientific attitude you come across on these boards is from low risk women who believe that having doctor led care in labour in an obstetric unit means they are safer than women being cared for by midwives in birth centres.

“why not direct your scorn at the societal narratives that make women think they've done birth 'wrong' if they require intervention rather than women themselves?“

Because I don’t think these narratives are actually a real ‘thing’. They’re an invention by people who want to vilify those who are calling for care more supportive of normal physiology and for for those who are flagging up worryingly high rates of intervention.

Literally every single woman I know regardless of her age is aware that birth is unpredictable and that medics are there to rescue women whose births have become dangerous.

The ‘narrative’ is the same one around infant feeding, you know, the one which is all about ‘making’ women who don’t/can’t breastfeed feel awful and stigmatised, despite living in a culture where most babies more than a few weeks old are formula fed, and where everyone prioritises women’s right not to breastfeed above all else.

Because I don’t think these narratives are actually a real ‘thing’.

So basically you're denying the lived experience of the vast majority of posters in this thread?

I think you make very valid points op.

I think minifingerz is coming in for a bit of a hard time here. My understanding of what she is saying (though of course she can correct me if I’m wrong) is that for most labours, there is more than one possible way they could turn out. They could be very ‘low tech’ with no, or no invasive pain relief. Or they could be ‘high tech.’

My first birth was very low tech, just me, dh and a midwife and gas and air. But if I had chosen to deliver in a large hospital, which in itself would have made me more anxious and feeling less in control, then it’s possible I might have ended up with an epidural and possibly ventouse or forceps. In that scenario, I would probably have ended up feeling that outcome was inevitable (which it clearly wasn’t!)

I totally understand the difference between the majority of potentially ‘normal’ births and those which are never going to go naturally (like my dc 2: csection.)

None of this is a judgement on women’s choice, because as some women have said on here, they chose hospital and epidural because that made them less anxious

“So basically you're denying the lived experience of the vast majority of posters in this thread?“

I’m denying that women are ‘made to feel’ they are guaranteed a straightforward birth.

Because you know how every woman is made to feel, right? People in the very thread have told you that's how they feel. You're always so keen to embrace things that you claim will empower women during birth but you disempower them repeatedly by disregarding their words and lived experience - I've seen you do this repeatedly over the yearts, in many thread of this kind.

I was in an NCT group and I think that only two of us weren't "made to feel" we were guaranteed a straightforward birth. We were the only ones who didn't swallow the woo bollocks, and we were the only ones who didn't feel betrayed by the rhetoric we'd been fed when things went wrong (as they did for all but 2 out of 7 of us).

I had the most medicalised birth due to the vast number of issues with my pregnancy. The pain was worse than I expected, but I HAD expected it to be pretty bad, so I didn't panic or worry I was dying. And I felt in control the whole time - in part I suspect because my birth plan was "Have healthy baby, don't die", as opposed consisting of a load of whale-music, candles, and breathing.

I wish someone had given me the following info in advance (also after doing hypnobirthing and finding some of the ethos inadequate)

Medical professionals are not trying to mess up your birth or ignore your wishes: you’re all after the same outcome of a positive birth experience and a healthy mum and baby. They’ll respect your preferences (and save your lives as well)

You really will not give a fuck how the birth happens if you’re treated with compassion and respect throughout. Stop worrying about details.

The advice is just that - it’s a guide and it’s not true for everybody. I was terrified about establishing breastfeeding after my baby was whisked away for monitoring immediately, and then in icu for 2 hours before we got skin-to-skin. It worked straight away and he’s still feeding like a champ at nearly 1.

I’m pretty sure the top priority for every woman is to have a healthy baby and survive the experience. It would be pretty offensive to suggest otherwise.

For a woman who is low risk with a straightforward pregnancy, a low tech birth is extremely safe. No one ever dared tell me I wasn’t prioritising my baby’s safety when I booked to have my first child at a stand-alone MLU. If they had dared, I’d have told them to fuck off to the far end of fuck.
But I did get a few raised eyebrows and a couple of comments about whale music, which is pretty unpleasant because my wish to avoid invasive pain relief methods should have been respected as much as the next woman’s wish to give birth in hospital with full pain relief.

Oh and I wasn’t into whale music anyway. But deep breathing through the contractions was ace and really helped

Im not suggesting people don't want a healthy baby. Obviously. And it's pretty offensive if you to imply otherwise. I'm saying that's ALL I wanted so I wasn't upset when I didn't get eg a waterbirth. I'm sure it's obvious what I meant so I can only assume you're being rather disingenuous, which isn't the mature way to debate.

momo I can totally believe that you got comments about whale music when booking into an MLU.

I think there are a lot of people who secretly think that all women should have elective sections and if they don't it's because they've been "brainwashed". It's a really patronising attitude.

Is there actually any woman alive who has ever seriously wanted whale music whilst giving birth? I can't think of anything more irritating!

I know sunlight. It’s really weird isn’t it that some women can’t deal with other women having a low tech birth without either making comments about whale music, or suggesting that their birth must have been really easy and not very painful!!

I was lucky, I had a relatively easy birth and recovery. But I was just that - lucky. I'd hoped for the best, and I was lucky. People seem to forget the huge number of women (and babies) who used to die during childbirth before modern medicine.

(OP is totally being unreasonable about parsnips though)

I can completely deal with women having low tech births. Go you! Well done. What I dislike is women being convinced to aim for that to the extent that they feel like failures when things don't go to plan, because they've been pressured into thinking an epidural or a c section is necessarily a bad thing. And I do in fact know several people who had whale music or pan pipes or similar in their MLU.

I had spa music when I was in labour It was a playlist from Spotify - I quite liked it, was very calming, but I didn't get a low tech natural birth so I don't think I can ever go for a massage again now without having flashbacks to the consultant coming at me with forceps!

DarceyBussell
I had an eclectic mix, ranging from Mozart to the Jam! I remember asking dh to play something calming to chill out to while I was breathing through contractions and then telling him to put on something with more oomph when it came to the hard work of pushing ds out!