... about "natural birth" and "your body knows what to do"?

[ParsnipsAreTheDevil]

I keep seeing the whole "don't worry your body knows what to do" thing thrown at pregnant women and it was a massive part of the hypnobirthing course I did before
DS was born (he's 2 now). When it came to it it turned out my body didn't have a bloody clue what to do. In labour for 3 days, wasn't dilating, emergency c section and we both got sepsis. Felt like a massive failure afterwards thanks to the massive emphasis on natural birth and my body categorically NOT knowing what to do?

Aibu that what we should be saying to pregnant women is to keep an open mind about birth? I've met a few women since who had very similar experiences to me. Breathe the fecking baby out my arse.

In other words, how a labour goes will often be shaped by other forces than the mum's own body.

This is completely undeniable. It doesn’t mean women are to blame for anything - it means the opposite. It means that different environments and care drastically effect outcomes.

The comparison with things like dentistry don’t make sense because the choice isn’t pain relief or not and the outcome is the same either way. There is a really sharp increase of likelihood of instrumental birth with an epidural for example. So it depends (unfortunately) on what you consider the worst outcome for you. Then you can work backwards to give yourself the best shot.

For me, instrumental birth and abdominal surgery were the things I was most frightened of (I’ve had abdominal surgery).

It should be up the individual to decide. And we certainly do have this autonomy over other areas of healthcare.

"I reckon medical intervention plays a massive part in inhibiting the bodies natural processes. Even small stuff like examinations"

Every midwife will tell you this.

But people don't seem to get it. At all.

“In other words, how a labour goes will often be shaped by other forces than the mum's own body.”

Yes yes yes!

My first labour was long, and I experienced pain on a level I’d never thought possible! But tbh that’s not unusual when giving birth first time around . BUT I was in the environment I wanted (small stand-alone MLU) with a known midwife supporting me right the way through (she even hung on an hour or so at the end of her shift which would never have happened in a big hospital). She listened to me, supported me and there wasn’t a doctor or anaesthetic in sight. It felt very different to being in a hospital. Gas and air was brought when I asked for it but nothing forced on me. I’m
Absolutely sure that being in this environment and being supported by a known midwife (because it was such a small local unit I’d had my ante Natal checks there and got to know the small friendly midwife team) helped me to give birth naturally.

As a PP said, there’s rarely only one way a labour and birth can turn out. The majority of labours could potentially end up in different ways depending on lots of factors, environment, the way the woman is feeling and being treated...

I often wondered after if I’d chosen to give birth in hospital whether the big, more impersonal and unfamiliar environment would have made me feel more anxious- I’m sure it would. Then because it was a first birth, long and very painful, I might have felt pushed into having an epidural, which then might have resulted in an instrumental delivery... and the thing is, if that had happened, I’d probably have ended up believing ‘Jolly good job I was in hospital with anaesthetics and doctors because I needed an instrumental delivery!’

Of course I’m aware in a minority of cases it’s inevitable how birth needs to be (been there done that too, with my second who needed to be delivered by CS for medical reasons.) But the majority of labours do have the potential to turn out in more than one way and the environment can play a big part in that

momo

You liken it to running a marathon in the sense that you know it’ll hurt but you feel empowered.

Can I ask why you feel empowered?

To me it is completely incomprehensible BUT I support any woman’s choice to get the birth she wants and mean no disrespect by asking this, I just don’t understand.

I agree with someone who said women should be listened to, whether we ask for home birth or cesarean and providing the options the safe, should be able to make our own choices.

I honestly don’t think I can explain it MrSpock! That was the best analogy I can think of but I’m aware it’s probably incomprehensible to women who make other decisions. And that’s fine! It’s all about acknowledging that we’re all different and not sneering at women who make different decisions or comparing having a baby with having your appendix out etc!

All I know is I was very keen to remain in control as much as possible and I definitely wanted to give birth in a small, homely environment with a known midwife. I didn’t do hypno birthing (this was over 20 years ago and perhaps wasn’t as well known then) but I did do NCT and the local antenatal class too and I practised the breathing a LOT, and found this very helpful.
I also expected it to hurt a lot, which I think helped because I prepared myself for it (though even so I don’t think anyone can prepare you for the total intensity of pain of that first birth.)

Despite the pain, I felt extremely happy with how I was supported through labour (and I think that’s key. Women can end up feeling very unhappy with their experience.) as soon as ds was born I felt extremely empowered - like I knew if I’d coped with that, I could cope with anything.
In contrast when my dc2 was delivered by CS I felt very thankful that such technology exists because it was a medical necessity for her, but it was a very different feeling to having given birth first time around.

That’s the best I can do to explain- but as we’re all different, I fully understand that many women wouldn’t want that experience and that’s fine too

Momo that’s a pretty good explanation. Thank you.

For me, I felt in control when the what ifs were controlled by a cesarean, because the way I saw it, I couldn’t control if I had a bad VB but I could control choosing a cesarean, and I could become familiar with the doctors if that makes sense? The comparison with medical procedures is more that I se birth as medical, I’m aware some women don’t and that’s also cool.

I think it’s important women are listened to. We all have different preferences and neither is right or wrong!

It's interesting to see so much criticism of hypnobirthing. I'm currently pregnant with my first and originally signed up for a session on the understanding that they were actually quite a good alternative to some of the more woo natural birth stuff, as some friends who had always known they were going to have to have highly medicalised births had chosen to do this over NCT and other natural birthing stuff.

The practitioner was bonkers. I had a thread on here afterwards querying whether or not hypnotherapy was any different to a bit of mindfulness and yoga with a much higher price tag, and the response I got was cultish.

I was never denying that there may well be some benefits to hypnobirthing but any questioning of the marketing of it hits a massive nerve with some people, why is that?

I think, imo, yoga is the way forward. My second labour was at a midwife unit. I found the breathing techniques really helpful. He was a pretty, straight forward natural birth though!

Hypno is a funny one. The core idea is really useful and valid - relaxation and control and mindfulness is a very useful technique for a lot of situations.

The problem I had was the ridiculous woo it was dressed up in. I’ve heard a lot of women say the same and joked with them that we should do a ‘hypno for rationalists’ course 😁

“I think, imo, yoga is the way forward.”

From the British Medical Journal:

“Complementary medicine
Research
Complementary therapies for labour and birth study: a randomised controlled trial of antenatal integrative medicine for pain management in labour
Kate M Levett1, C A Smith1, A Bensoussan1, H G Dahlen2
Author affiliations

Abstract

Objective To evaluate the effect of an antenatal integrative medicine education programme in addition to usual care for nulliparous women on intrapartum epidural use.

Design Open-label, assessor blind, randomised controlled trial.

Setting 2 public hospitals in Sydney, Australia.

Population 176 nulliparous women with low-risk pregnancies, attending hospital-based antenatal clinics.

Methods and intervention The Complementary Therapies for Labour and Birth protocol, based on the She Births and acupressure for labour and birth courses, incorporated 6 evidence-based complementary medicine techniques: acupressure, visualisation and relaxation, breathing, massage, yoga techniques, and facilitated partner support. Randomisation occurred at 24–36 weeks’ gestation, and participants attended a 2-day antenatal education programme plus standard care, or standard care alone.

Main outcome measures Rate of analgesic epidural use. Secondary: onset of labour, augmentation, mode of birth, newborn outcomes.

Results There was a significant difference in epidural use between the 2 groups: study group (23.9%) standard care (68.7%; risk ratio (RR) 0.37 (95% CI 0.25 to 0.55), p≤0.001). The study group participants reported a reduced rate of augmentation (RR=0.54 (95% CI 0.38 to 0.77), p

“Agree. I’ll think people who say things like this are ignoring the shockingly high proportion of women who used to die in childbirth before modern medical interventions were possible. It’s a painful and potentially dangerous process.”

Agree.

I also think that due to modern diets - or something - babies are getting bigger. But our bodies aren’t.

So it’s not like the good old days, I do think that we tend to need more help these days.

I don’t really worry about the hypnobirthing thing though, it doesn’t bother me what other people are up to. You just do you, OP, and don’t let yourself feel bad about that kind of thing.

‘I also think that due to modern diets - or something - babies are getting bigger. But our bodies aren’t.’

• actually this isn’t true. Our bodies are getting bigger, but not in a way which is helpful, when it’s being overweight or obese, which increase the risks with pregnancy and birth, and are a factor in increasing CS rates

If it were all about healthy diet then presumably by the laws of nature, babies might get bigger but our bodies would be getting taller and adapting through evolution to have slightly wider hips.

I'm so glad I had twins. You get no pressure with twins, not about the birth, not about breastfeeding, naps, BLW, any of it. You just have the pressure of having twins

IDK... having had three miscarriages without pain relief, I do wonder whether all the woo around natural birth boils down to the massive endorphin rush you have after the pain has subsided. It was like coming up on heavy duty opiates.

“- actually this isn’t true. Our bodies are getting bigger, but not in a way which is helpful, when it’s being overweight or obese, which increase the risks with pregnancy and birth, and are a factor in increasing CS rates ”

This is of course what I meant. Sorry if unclear but I thought everyone would take it as read that carrying extra weight on our bellies or bottoms won’t be helpful for childbirth.
When I said our bodies aren’t, I meant the structures that are required for childbirth. The pelvis, birth canal etc.

IDK... having had three miscarriages without pain relief, I do wonder whether all the woo around natural birth boils down to the massive endorphin rush you have after the pain has subsided. It was like coming up on heavy duty opiates.

I think it varies. I also sadly had that happen and none of mine actually hurt physically. I was surprised at how painless they were. I kept waiting for the agony but it didn’t happen. Obviously it was mental torture but that’s a different thing.

I’m also having twins now, so you sound like a parallel me!

“If it were all about healthy diet then presumably by the laws of nature, babies might get bigger but our bodies would be getting taller and adapting through evolution to have slightly wider hips.”

I don’t really want to get into a conspiracy theory argument, but yes... I think the changes are due to unhealthy aspects of our modern diet - far more sugar than is “natural”, hormones from animal products etc.

This is all very recent - last couple of generations - and evolution would take a very long time to catch up.

Congratulations MrSpock! Twins is awesome. The first 4 months is a bit horrific but from then on in it's good fun.

Thank you! I’m looking forward to it! 16 weeks now and just starting to feel less sick!

I do wonder whether all the woo around natural birth boils down to the massive endorphin rush you have after the pain has subsided. It was like coming up on heavy duty opiates.

I did feel astonishingly high for around 12 hours after giving birth. I took a selfie not long after the midwife had finished my stitches (!) with the baby, and in that moment I truly believed I was superwoman. I looked at it a couple of days later and was genuinely surprised to see a pale, slightly haunted looking woman who clearly hadn't slept for a couple of days...

I don't know how much of that huge rush was the birth, though, and how much was the 'getting a baby' bit - I hadn't realised how strong my anxiety that he'd die in late pregnancy was until I was handed a healthy, screaming baby. It was like an enormous weight that I didn't know I was carrying was suddenly lifted.

I went to classes before I had my 2nd DC because I had 8 years between DC and thought I could probably do with updating on certain things. When the midwife told all the other (first time mums), that child birth is no more painful than a heavy period, I fell about laughing. I decided nothing had changed since my first (terrible; ventouse and forceps with no pain relief), birth.

So I thought it was possibly a good idea to suggest not to go into your birth with definite plans to have no pain relief (like the midwife kept advising), but to keep an open mind, (and take all drugs offered ).

The midwife was not best pleased and took me aside afterwards to say that I shouldn't tell the other mums-to-be what it was really like, because we don't want to frighten them!

I personally wish that I had been told a lot more before my first birth. I knew second time round how horrific it can be and I was very vocal that I was not going to have forceps again. Second time was not better in terms of damage (rubbish body had no clue what to do even second time.) But massively different in terms of how I was treated and pain relief.

So much so that even though I ended up with a fourth degree tear, I wasn't traumatised as I was in my first birth. I felt like I was in control and the midwives listened to what I wanted, and did their best to make it the best experience possible.

I do wonder whether all the woo around natural birth boils down to the massive endorphin rush you have after the pain has subsided. It was like coming up on heavy duty opiates

I felt like that after my second "gentle" emcs. Two days of feeling high as a kite (and no it wasn't drugs as I refused all medication after the spinal, including the paracetamol as I didn't need it and wouldn't take anything at all in the labour preceding it). Then my milk came in on day 3 and I crashed hard emotionally.

I wonder then if it's a more a case of a good birth from the mother's perspective has that effect rather than the method of birth.

I was euphoric after my ELCS too, Dino. I could just immerse myself in unadulterated joy following the birth of my much-longed-for DD without feeling exhausted after a long labour. Then on day 3 my milk came in, DD started to have problems feeding, and the shine wore off..... The birth itself, though, was magic, and I was on a compete high afterwards.

Are midwives trained to brainwash women, I’m genuinly wondering this after a thread about misinformation on official leaflets/documents handed out by midwives?

It was something to do with outcomes being better for the baby with vaginal birth, which (apparently) is patently not true.

Don’t shoot me, I’m remembering this second-hand from another thread.

as this is AIBU so no qualficiations required:

I also thought of Princess Charlotte, dead after three days labouring to birth a stillborn son and hence changing history. Queen Victoria (who got to be queen because of this) was of course luckier, living to a great age after delivering nine living children. And of the case in my family tree of desperate PND ending up in death. thank goodness for modern medicine in the countries where it exists.

Why childbirth is the only competitive body function is beyond me. do whatever works for you and gives you and the baby the best chance. No-one 'fails' at it, and any foolish woman (because it always seems to be women) berating another should be given a deserved good kicking.

Two words. Medieval agriculture. My body absolutely did not know what to do!!