To think a lot of people are jealous of teachers' holidays but...

[Pengggwn]

...too bitter about it to admit that they wouldn't be teachers themselves?

Just that really.

I have seen so many comments and threads aimed at dissecting teachers' pay and conditions to a forensic level, people complaining that teachers are available over the summer to answer their queries, people arguing that teachers should be working anyway or claim to be working even when they're not (I'm not, at least not for the next month).

And yet, we are in the middle of a teacher recruitment and retention crisis. We can't recruit and keep well-qualified teachers.

Where are all the volunteers??

Dorsetdays, you surely can't actually believe that teachers only work 1265 hours? I can't imagine many really work until midnight every night, but certainly most will take a lot of work home with them.
If teaching is so cushy, why do you think there is a huge recruitment and retention problem? Ex teachers don't tend to think the grass is greener then rush back to teaching. But there seem to be many people from business and industry who try teaching and are horrified.

Also @Dorsetdays we are not required to work a maximum of 1265 - that is the minimum. The directed time.

10% is PPA time - so admin time like any other job has. In this time I never get to mark any of the 180 books I have to mark as I am usually phoning/meeting parents.

INSET days were taken out of teacher holidays and can't be done during the day like 'normal' jobs as we have these things called students to teach. It's a bit naive to say we can come back and do the work - work is teaching.

Sadly you sound like many people and are incredibly naive about what the job entails. I worked in the IT industry previously working long hours and tight deadlines - but it was nothing compared to teaching. There are
Other jobs equally or more difficult. What people don't get about teaching (and nursing, social work etc) is the intensity.

pieceofpurplesky but to be fair none of the salaries quoted on this thread are expressed as part time or pro rated upwards. So it’s no wonder people don’t think of teachers holidays as unpaid.

The OP was about long holidays being resented by people, that’s not the case as confirmed by most posts on here and I’ve certainly never said that either. The issue is created by (some) teachers moaning about working in stressful jobs for ridiculously long hours (until 2am regularly? )

The simple fact is that’s not exclusive to teaching. And actually when you look at the basic maths I don’t see that it is even the case in teaching. Your contract is for 1265 hours pa, most employees contracts are around 500 hours pa more than that.

We ALL have to work extra hours on top on that sometimes, not just teachers.

Not sure there’s much else to say really.

Perhaps it isn't exclusive to teaching, I don't know. But given that the quality of a teacher has a direct impact on the life chances of children, surely we all agree that it's in everyone's interests for them to be well remunerated, and to be mentally and physically well.
Clearly, the way many teachers currently experience the job is not conducive to that, and therefore it's something we should all be concerned about.

I'm not a teacher, but I have taught English to adults. One thing I found is that it's relentless during the school day. You can't get up from your desk and make yourself a cuppa. You're on your feet every day.

Then there's lesson prep and marking to do on an evening.

And I was teaching adults who wanted to learn, not children who were bored and didn't want to be there.

I don’t think the issue is as simple as about the hours worked. Many jobs, particularly at a higher level, require long hours.

With teaching it’s the fact that you are performing at high intensity all the time. It’s a bit like being on stage (but with an audience who don’t necessarily want to be there!) and having to educate 30 or more individuals in a way which keeps them all engaged and caters to myriad different needs. Oh and you don’t have the advantage of a script - you have a set of objectives but most of it is down to you as the teacher to plan how you’re going to deliver. And of course it needs to be interactive, so it’s not as simple as talking or modelling to the audience... you need to include kinaesthetic learning too. And unlike an actor, you have to deal with any interruptions that come up, while still achieving all your lesson objectives. Then after an hour a bell rings, you may have to dash half way across the school with god knows how many resources in 0 seconds to hopefully arrive before your next audience arrives. Repeat for 5 hours. Then spend the next few hours marking 100 + books, dealing with mountains of emails and paperwork, dealing with Johnny from your tutor group’s lost blazer (mum keeps ringing in and you just know she’ll complain if you don’t respond, even though you have no clue what he’s done with it)

Yes, it gets easier with time, because you learn to streamline some things, cut corners in others... personally I haven’t sat up til midnight since my very early years of teaching. BUT the intensity never goes away... in fact it’s increased hugely over recent years because of the ridiculous demands placed on teachers, who in many cases are doing the job that parents should be doing, in addition to the professional role of actually teaching.

Most teachers I know are in work by 7/7.30 and rarely leave before 5/6 so it’s a long day BUT if that were the only issue it wouldn’t be so bad. It’s the intensity. If you’re a GP, or a dentist, or a solicitor, you have a busy, responsible and at times stressful job. But you’re dealing with one person, or one case, at a time. Mostly you’re dealing with people who choose to be in front of you. In teaching you’re dealing with 30+ simultaneously- and many of them wouldn’t choose to be there. You do your best to engage and inspire them but ultimately you can’t make them want to be there.

As for PRP... absolutely it is applied in many jobs, and rightly so. But it’s the way that it’s used in many schools which is wrong. Some of the most challenging classes I’ve taught, where I feel I’ve done my best teaching, would never tick the right boxes for PRP because ultimately no matter how well I do my job, I can’t be responsible for that girl who gets herself excluded and misses 2 weeks of vital lessons (oh btw of course I’ve provided work for her as I’m obliged to do, and marked it, but it’s not the same as being present in the lesson. And of course I had to differentiate her work because my class lesson wasn’t something she could do at home) Neither can I be responsible for the lad who, after I’ve grafted for 2 years teaching him the gcse course, fails to show up for the exam because his parents have had a blazing row the night before and everything at home is in chaos.

IMO teaching used to be an extremely rewarding role. It’s harder work than anything else I’ve ever done but it can be a fantastic job. The way things are now though... well, thank heavens I’m in my final few years of teaching. Hand on heart I could not recommend the profession to young people now, which is a terrible indictment but it’s the truth.

Of course, this being MN, there will always be that small minority of sniping posters who whine away about how easy teachers have it. Perhaps they ought to put their money where their mouths are and retrain. After all, it can only help the massive recruitment and retention facing the U.K.

Recruitment and retention crisis

I was a nurse and I wanted some normality in my hours so I could have time with my family. I moved into teaching at college and it is much better. But, yes I do an enormous amount of marking and planning in my own time. I fit this around my kids and it is difficult, but we all do what we have to do, to do a good job for our family and work.
I am happy though, I worked very hard to get qualified as a nurse and a teacher. The curriculum changes all the time, teachers (most) don't just teach the same thing each year. I am planning four new units this summer - (assignments, presentations, activities, schemes of work).

Not sure there’s much else to say really.

There's not much else you can say, no. Because you don't actually have a clue what you're talking about. Your comments seem to be based purely on the fact that you've managed to look up what teachers' contracted hours are. You really are failing to understand how very large a proportion of teachers' jobs is not done in contracted time.

We live in a free country and people are free to choose jobs that fit their qualifications.

We live in a free country and people are free to choose jobs that fit their qualifications.
And free to discuss and debate their thoughts when thr government makes announcements about their pay and conditions.
I don't get your point...

Eggzandbacon I have a feeling that your husband and my daughter in law possibly work in the same industry.

We live in a free country and people are free to choose jobs that fit their qualifications.

Yep. But if they don't choose to, for example, work in the NHS, what makes them think it's their place to conduct a granular analysis and unsolicited performance review of the work of the people who do? Oh wait, they aren't doing that to NHS workers; they're doing it to teachers. Same point.

If it were up to me, I would radically overhaul the whole Education system. Get rid of the ridiculous school terms which are based on historic needs and no longer relevant. Shorten the actual contact time with pupils, but increase the actual time for prep, marking, completing the necessary admin tasks, so that the quality of teaching and feedback can be consistently top notch. At the moment, how can any teacher be expected to provide meaningful written feedback for say, 90 pupils, in a turnaround time of 2 days (I teach a core subject so see my pupils four times a week) I already work 7.30- to 5/6 in school so the several hours it needs to mark those books properly has to fit into the evening in between the lessons during the week

I think we’d see major improvements if, for example, teachers and pupils just had standard holidays, 28 days per year, and teachers worked 8.30- 5 pm in school. Pupils could arrive for 9.30/10and be taught til 2 pm. I reckon this would be win win. Research shows that teenagers ‘wake up’ and learn better later in the day. The quality of teaching and feedback would be better with teachers having the time to do this as part of the normal working day, rather than having to do masses in evenings and weekends. The actual working day would be far preferable (oh! the bliss of not needing to be at work til 8.30...)
Holidays would be real time off because teachers wouldn’t be so knackered from the relentlessness of term time, and all the stuff that has to be done currently over the holidays - writing schemes of work, policies, strategic planning- would be incorporated into the normal working day.
I think you’d find many teachers would genuinely have more proper time off, and a far more reasonable work load, if these ideas were implemented

Of course we’d then have the usual whingers complaining that the school day is too short and not providing long enough child care for their kids

BoneyBackJefferson actually - I have pretty much worked a similar pattern throughout my career, with the exception of my PGCE and NQT years. As a head I don’t teach a full workload because oddly enough, there are other things I need to do. I still teach though, I believe it’s really important that I do. I don’t recognize a lot of the talk on here about the long hours... it doesn’t fit my experience and I would be horrified if I thought staff at my school were working anything approaching the hours some posters are quoting. Teachers need a life in order to be effective practitioners.
Teaching is like any other profession. For the right person it can be fab, can pay well, and can be enormously satisfying.

pieceofpurplesky
@Dorsetdays teachers think they don't get paid for their holidays because they don't. Numerous people have explained this on the thread so I won't explain again. Just that teachers, like you, are paid for 25 days holiday. The rest is unpaid

This is incorrect
Permanent teachers in England and Wales are paid an annual salary, accruing at a daily rate.

*Permanent teachers (working in primary and secondary schools) are paid for every day of the calendar year, including holidays.

By all means, argue that teachers are overworked and deserve their paid holidays - but you are fully paid for every day of the school holidays. Statutory holiday entitlement becomes a non-issue (apart from complex rules concerning maternity pay) because the school holidays are so long.

Some posters seem to be describing what I would recognise as term-time only contracts (e.g.10 months salary divided by 12 or pro rata annual leave). I wonder if they are permanent teachers - perhaps they are teaching assistants or work in FE instead?

Some of the posters who say that they are only paid for 1265 hours of directed time per year have completely forgotten the other clause in their contracts:

^51.7. In addition to the hours a teacher is required to be available for work under paragraph 51.5 or 51.6, a teacher must work such reasonable additional hours as may be necessary to enable the effective discharge of the teacher’s professional duties, including in particular planning and preparing courses and lessons; and assessing, monitoring, recording and reporting on the learning needs, progress and achievements of assigned pupils.
51.8. The employer must not determine how many of the additional hours referred to in paragraph 51.7 must be worked or when these hours must be worked^

The number of additional hours is not specified (there in lies the problem) - it's up to the individual teacher to decide how many extra hours (if any) they need to do in able to discharge their professional duties. In theory, a teacher can carry out this work at whatever time suits them (e.g. 8am Christmas Day - if they wish) and at any location (in school, at home, the park..)

The number of extra hours to be undertaken is unspecified (no minimum or maximum number of additional hours outside the 1265 hours) that the head teacher can 'direct' the teacher to do - but this extra work is paid as part of the teacher's salary.

I would be absolutely gobsmacked if SeasideRock (a head teacher?) is unaware of these pay and conditions for permanent teachers.

Yes! I am well aware of STPC regs, as a head and as an ex-union rep
My standard hours, 8-5, with the occasional evening/weekend/holiday, falls outside of the standard 9-5 working week, as you would expect for someone earning 75K. However, the point I was making was twofold:

1. the holidays are a fab aspect of the job. Those who are envious are welcome to join us. As numerous other posters have said, we are in the midst of a recruitment and retention crisis
2. I don’t recognize the hellish hours people are citing on here as my experience. My SLT and I expect people to work hard within contact hours (9-4 at my place) but would be very concerned if people were working many hours beyond that. We put time and effort into keeping workload to a minimum as being in front of a class is very demanding. There has been some very negative stuff on mumsnet about the profession, both in terms of workload and pay. I simply wanted to present another perspective. I love my job, and would like to think that my colleagues do too. Anyway - I am currently in holiday - sitting in a lovely National Trust tearoom. I’m going to come off mumsnet now and go and enjoy my well-earned break .

I dreamt about a class last night which I am putting down to spending too much time on teaching threads on mumsnet!
Can I throw into the ring that Scottish teachers don’t get paid for most of the holidays, ie definitely in our contract type of thing, we don’t get paid for what’s termed “school closure” days.

SeasideRock

So you do acknowledge then, that permanent teachers in England and Wales (working in primary and secondary schools) are fully paid for the school holidays?

There doesn't appear to be a shortage of primary school teachers.

Not jealous at all - I'm a SAHM

My SLT and I expect people to work hard within contact hours (9-4 at my place) but would be very concerned if people were working many hours beyond that. Nope. Don't believe that in a month of Sundays.

ALL of your class based staff will be in at least an hour before that, may stay for at least an hour after and will be taking work home. They HAVE to... if they have a full teaching timetable, there simply aren't enough hours, outside of lunch time, to get the most basic paperwork done.

I believe that Scottish teachers are entitled to 40 days paid annual leave.

Now, I'm going to drop ds1 at the cinema (air-conditioned - lucky thing) and take ds2 to meet friends - at a National Trust property in fact

looks like the worst job in the world to me and they can keep their holidays!

Some good ideas there Momo27 but they would have a huge impact in primaries where the school day is a major part of parents childcare arrangements (not going to start on that debate). Extra childcare for later starts and earlier finishes will cost either parents or schools to provide.

think we’d see major improvements if, for example, teachers and pupils just had standard holidays, 28 days per year

Here's your problem: when would those 28 days happen?

You can bet the parents wouldn't be happy to have their choice of holiday so severely curtailed. So teachers would be endlessly playing catch-up. When would the teachers take their holidays?
The cost of keeping the buildings open and heated/cooled would be considerable.

While teachers do lots of work after school, at weekends and during time when the school is closed to students, if the "holiday" time was taken away, the present recruitment and retention crisis would look piddling in comparison.