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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To ask a question about what a Catholic would do in a certain scenario for a piece of fiction I'm writing?

101 replies

AjasLipstick · 21/07/2018 14:27

So...the setting is 1890. If an Irish Catholic had to bury a fellow Catholic in a very remote place where there were no churches or priests...how would they go about it?

What things would they be certain to ensure were done? What would they say?

OP posts:
Clionba · 21/07/2018 14:29

The person could only be buried in consecrated ground. There would have to be a reqium mass conducted by a priest. What kind of scenario are you thinking of?

MeanTangerine · 21/07/2018 14:32

YABU not to just write your AIBU as though you actually are the protagonist. ("Aibu to just chuck the body in the bog, no one else is around, what they don't know won't hurt them, anyway it's my narc MIL..." etc)
That's what the other aspiring authors on MN do.

Original poster
AjasLipstick · 21/07/2018 14:39

Clion Well there isn't any consecrated ground. They couldn't have a Mass. No priest...it's in a very remote area. Miles from civilisation.

OP posts:
LEMtheoriginal · 21/07/2018 14:42

Well it depends on the circumstances - accident? Illness? Murder? Is there no community at all?

Frankwindsor · 21/07/2018 14:43

I am glad that at least you are trying to get things right. I have been really fed up lately when reading some newly-published books when the author has got factual stuff wrong. And I know the stuff was wrong because the author wrote about times/places when I was actually alive and young and there, and the writer was wrong and hadn't bothered to check, or didn't care, or wanted somehow to connect to younger readers, I don't know....

reddressblueshoes · 21/07/2018 14:43

Nowhere in 1890s ireland was that remote OP so your premise doesn't really add up. Nowadays, there is a shortage of priests and an expectation that people will drive to mass etc- at the time, the most remote areas would have had priests assigned.

Not being buried in consecrated ground was considered as meaning you were going to hell- people who died by suicide weren't allowed in graveyards till shockingly recently, like the 60s. I just don't think there would have been an alternative to calling for a priest one way or another. Maybe no need to go to church and have a mass, but last writes and consecrated ground necessary. All sorts of small townlands in Ireland have old graveyards, because people had to be buried without travelling long distances.

LEMtheoriginal · 21/07/2018 14:43

But if there was nothing i would bury the person and pray. If there was no other choice God would forgive

ParkheadParadise · 21/07/2018 14:46

Same as LEMtheoriginal

Original poster
AjasLipstick · 21/07/2018 14:47

LEM I really don't want to give the circumstances. It's not murder though. There are no other people nearby at all and won't be for the foreseeable.

Reddress I never said it was in Ireland. Only that the people are Irish.

OP posts:
Original poster
AjasLipstick · 21/07/2018 14:48

And yes Lem I know that there would be prayer. What I want to know really, is what sort of prayer? What other rites might the other person try to manage on their own without a priest.

OP posts:
Apileofballyhoo · 21/07/2018 14:48

Not much they could do except say a few prayers I'd say. Sacraments are performed by priests.

Original poster
AjasLipstick · 21/07/2018 14:51

Do you know what kind of prayers? Ballyhoo?

OP posts:
beanaseireann · 21/07/2018 14:51

It would have been scandalous not to be buried in consecrated ground but needs must and I presume during the big famine many were buried in non consecrated ground.

I think a deep hole would have been dug and the person placed gently in to it and the burier would bless themselves ( In the name of the father etc said probably in Latin or Irish ) and an Act of Contrition said.
But you'd need to ask a priest about church 'history' because so much has changed.

Original poster
AjasLipstick · 21/07/2018 14:51

Just to reiterate to anyone else...this is NOT in Ireland. The people are Irish but they are not in Ireland. They are miles and miles from anyone else.

OP posts:
Clionba · 21/07/2018 14:53

You would have to find consecrated ground and a priest. If you couldn't find a priest you could offer reqiuem prayers or prayers for the dead. You would need holy water to put on the coffins before burial.

shockthemonkey · 21/07/2018 14:53

How many people are there around, in this remote place, and what types of professions/occupations do they have?

Are there any kinds of facilities at all, where they are? What sorts of buildings, fields, open natural spaces, woodlands etc are there?

Mainly they would be interested in making the best of a bad job, it would involve trying to replicate what a priest might do, as much as they could remember of the various rites, and trying to find a "decent" burial site -- peaceful, beautiful etc.

That's what I think they'd do (I was brought up Catholic in a half Irish family)

ErrolTheDragon · 21/07/2018 14:57

This must have been a situation which occurred in real life for colonists and missionaries - is there information on what they did?

Original poster
AjasLipstick · 21/07/2018 14:57

There are no other people. No consecrated ground. Nothing. I'll make it easier...it's a desert. There's literally NOTHING anywhere for many miles!

Monkey that's what I figured...they'd make the best of it by trying to manage what they could...but what? What is that?

OP posts:
Original poster
AjasLipstick · 21/07/2018 14:58

Errol not that I can find.

OP posts:
IceCreamIceCream · 21/07/2018 14:58

The Te Deum

ParkheadParadise · 21/07/2018 14:59

Mass said for repose of their soul.

IceCreamIceCream · 21/07/2018 15:06

Also see Prayer for the Dead and Eternal Rest. Eternal rest probably more accurate as it’s short and most people would have known it. In 1890 mass was still in Latin with the congregation only knowing a few responses so more complicated texts and prayers were for a priest to know. Realistically a couple of our fathers, Hail Marys and a glory be and a eternal rest followed by some made up words of commendation e.g ‘Lord I commend the soul of name in to your kingdom etc’ would be the best fit for your scenario

Bloatstoat · 21/07/2018 15:06

The De Profundis (Out of The Depths, Psalm 130) is the psalm for the dead, the Eternal Rest is the most common prayer for the dead, so would probably be said too - no idea if this was the case in 1890 though, and if they would be said in Latin? You can Google the full text of these. Also, although requiem Mass and consecrated burial is very important as people have said, it's also really common to have Masses said for someone who has died, so I imagine they would aim to do this as soon as possible. There would have still been a strong belief in purgatory at that time, so the prayers for the absolution of the dead would have been an important part of a Catholic funeral at the time (this has changed since Vatican 2), but I'm not sure if an ordinary person would have known these prayers themselves.
Sorry not to be more helpful, it's hard to know what would have been known at the time, as many people wouldn't have understood the Latin of services, so might have found it hard to so any but the simpler prayers themselves, but I might be completely wrong about that!

Original poster
AjasLipstick · 21/07/2018 15:06

Icream I don't think these people would know that. Isn't it a Gregorian chant?

"Parkhead: is that something that ordinary Catholics know by heart?

OP posts:
shockthemonkey · 21/07/2018 15:06

Ah, in that case I'd worry about shifting sands exposing the body to scavengers. That is the worst kind of desecration.

This worry aside, the main principle is "ashes to ashes, dust to dust" and the return of the body to nature.

Another thought - what did the person die of? If disease then maybe (shock horror) they would have gone for cremation, if only for health reasons.