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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not think i need to sleep train my 5yo

78 replies

Larrythecat · 19/07/2018 02:05

I have two children. DS is 3 and has always gone to sleep on his own, very easily. He does not need a cuddly toy and is happy to sleep in the dark. I put him in his cot and either he goes to sleep within minutes or songs to himself until he falls asleep. I don't stay more than a few seconds to draw curtains, kiss him night-night and leave. He's the perfect sleeper.

My DD is 5yo and has never gone to sleep on her own. At the minute I sit on the bed until she falls asleep, she has a night light, two cuddly toys and a glo clock. Instead of reducing the time I spend for bedtime routine, somehow it's getting longer. It can easily take me 30-60minutes between reading with her a book or two (she's a slow reader, as she has just learnt to read this year), and then she might not want to close her eyes and try to sleep, looking at me until her eyes just close up. She cry in hysterics if I leave before she falls asleep, or if I say I'm not staying. Sudden high pitch, red face and really inconsolable cry. If I just sit there with her, all is well. If I leave, I need to wait until she's sleepy and say that I'm going to the bathroom, hoping she falls asleep.

The thing is, I know this is far from ideal, but I think it's temporary and she's only 5. The fact that her younger brother is such a great sleeper does not mean she has to be sleep trained. We are very lucky with the youngest in relation to sleep, but I think it's perfectly normal for the 5yo to need comfort and she will grow out of it. I know that if my DH puts her to bed, she does not cry when he leaves, but he only does it when I'm away or ill. My 5yo also associates the night time routine with "mummy time", because that's probably our only 1:1 in the day and she really likes it, she has told other people out of the blue about her "special time with mummy" and in her head is a big deal. I think she's a bit jealous that the 3yo sleeps in our bedroom (no room) and she sees the bedtime as her special thing. But in comparison it's taking ages and DH thinks we should do something about it. I think we could wait until she's a bit older, 6-7? As I think they are more grown up then and want to be more independent. I don't have the heart to leave her to cry and I also like seeing her falling asleep. But I'm all of a sudden feeling that I should do something and I've started to make it less fun and more boring... But not sure that's right. She does usually sleep through until 7-8am once she's fallen asleep.

Am I kidding myself? Does it improve with time? Should I expect her to fall asleep on her own? Should I just ride it out? Am I making a rod for my own back?

OP posts:
Ansumpasty · 19/07/2018 21:55

One thing that I’ve noticed is that when my child picks up that I want him to go to sleep quickly, it makes him anxious and he takes twice as long to fall asleep.
Similar to the laptop idea, I read my book and ignore him and he tends to go to sleep a lot quicker.
At the moment, I keep falling asleep and waking an hour later, confused as to what day it is...

Yura · 23/07/2018 06:39

there is a study on sleeptraining infants - their stress levels are going through the roof, it's unbelievable

lightlypoached · 23/07/2018 06:58

(Self) Reading takes a lot of brain power and concentration and is quite stimulating. I'd suggest that you /DH do that with her during the early evening so that she can practice her skills without getting too wired. You can read stories to her when she's in bed so that she can relax, listen to your voice, cherish the stories and get all drowsy.

It may also be worth talking (listening!) to her about why she cries and what's bothering her. Don't put words into her mouth : ' why do you cry at bedtime?' (It may be something really trivial that you haven't thought of, or maybe she thinks you are spending loads of time with her sibling once she's asleep), then gently propose a new routine that addresses the issue. Give tons of reassurance 'I'm just downstairs, we've done lots of reading together today and will do more tomorrow etc, I love you to the moon and back,so does teddy bear. Cuddle up with him, night night'.
Lots of squeezy hugs too.
Bedtime is a really special time.

My kids are 15 and 19 now and still fondly remember bedtimes (I was a working parent doing long hours so bedtimes were very important). Talk to her , change the routine to address her concerns (within reason) and cherish the time together. Wish I'd done more of it.

Happygolucky009 · 23/07/2018 07:15

It sounds like you are doing a great job, I didn't sleep train my eldest who although didn't cry, would be unhappy and out of bed if we left him to fall asleep alone. He is now almost 10 and we have varying degrees of separation at bedtime, he never settles and goes to sleep so often get 2\3 shouts as he needs a drink/ is scared / wants a hug between 8pm and 11pm. This is a good night but often I end up in the bed and he will only sleep after me. My evenings are gone and time with dh non existent. Youngest gets jealous as mummy slept with brother (again). Also d's will still be awake at 11pm even though we did bedtime read and snuggles at 8pm.

It's great that you are attending to your child's need but I wish I had nipped this in the bud earlier, particularly as the eldest is now asking me to get permission from him to go out at night, as I may not be around for bedtime Hmm

strawberrypenguin · 23/07/2018 08:04

Personally I wouldn't want a routine like that with a 5yo.
I'd actually reduce the amount of light in her room - Glo Clocks are bright - she doesn't need a night light as well, it's probably stopping her sleeping properly

Metoodear · 23/07/2018 08:17

ObjectionSir

At 5 she shouldn't need so much attention before going to sleep; I say this as a trained professional.

Mumsnet is heavily biased towards not letting children cry and general helicopter parenting however, so you'll likely get a lot of "she's only 5, let her be" etc.
this if your happy to sit every night then good on you me story down stairs never in the bedroom upstairs a kid from me and dh then lights out that is all

DearMrDilkington · 23/07/2018 08:21

I know an 11yo that still won't go to sleep on her own, the habit doesn't always break op...

Ladygaladriel · 23/07/2018 08:30

I totally sympathise and am in a similar boat. 4 and a half year old DS needs me there to fall asleep and I am literally creeping out of his room still like when he was a baby. His 2 year old sister falls asleep by herself no problem.
I decided to tackle it a couple of weeks ago. I still lie with him at bedtime but now when he wakes in the night I go in, tuck him in and leave. I do this as many times as it takes and he has actually fallen back asleep by himself in the night.
But I know 6 months ago would have been another story, it was just the worst thing in the world for him to be left alone.
It’s hard isn’t it. Everyone says don’t worry about making a rod for your back when they are babies but at what point does that stop??
Having my second being such a good sleeper made me realise it’s not something I have done wrong with him, it’s just his personality I think.

Metoodear · 23/07/2018 08:37

Everyone says don’t worry about making a rod for your back when they are babies but at what point does that stop??
Having my second being such a good sleeper made me realise it’s not something I have done wrong with him, it’s just his personality I think.
eveyone doesn’t say this many say nip it in the bud asap otherwise they won’t sleep when their older these fucking Ap parents tell you it will all be fine but of course when your child is up still at 3am and your dh is getting fucked off they are not around

My HV told me train them to sleep and eat well and you will have cracked most of it and people will always babysit

FASH84 · 23/07/2018 08:43

Tidy up your 'storage room' and give it to DS and stop making excuses to have a three year old in your room, because you live the kisses and cuddles when it's clearly affecting your daughter. She just wants the same level of time and attention.

3WildOnes · 23/07/2018 08:43

I think that it is really important to spend time with your husband in the evening once your children have gone to bed.
Sleep training doesn’t need to involve lots of crying. I would try a gradual retreat method. Let her listen to a story tape or music in bed and spend that hour of special time with her an hour earlier.

eeanne · 23/07/2018 08:45

there is a study on sleeptraining infants - their stress levels are going through the roof, it's unbelievable

There are also studies that show sleep deprivation in young children has a negative effect on their development. One of my children literally cried all day and fought sleep. When we finally sleep trained and she started napping and sleeping at night, she became a much happier child. My other child falls asleep easily and naturally.

In the same way some children transition easily to toilet training and some refuse and resist it until they are much older. We wouldn't say however that it's OK for a 5 or 6 year old not to know how to use the toilet on their own (short of special needs). So why is it different for sleep.

Metoodear · 23/07/2018 08:48

eeanne

Amen ask any teacher about how having atired child in their class effects the dynamics and their education children don’t learn when their tired

And I know how I feel if I don’t have a good nights sleep

The brain develops when we’re sleeping not awake if your not sleeping then .....

eeanne · 23/07/2018 08:48

Tidy up your 'storage room' and give it to DS and stop making excuses to have a three year old in your room, because you live the kisses and cuddles when it's clearly affecting your daughter. She just wants the same level of time and attention.

Exactly, the issue here isn't sleep training, it's OP preference towards the younger child which the 5 year old is picking up and acting out to get her own share of attention.

Or put the children together and treat them equally!

Metoodear · 23/07/2018 08:50

In the same way some children transition easily to toilet training and some refuse and resist it until they are much older. We wouldn't say however that it's OK for a 5 or 6 year old not to know how to use the toilet on their own (short of special needs). So why is it different for sleep.
many AP do this sadly do allow their child to go in portly train and call it free toiletingand many more children are arriving at reception in nappies

rainbowstardrops · 23/07/2018 09:06

I think the huge issue here is your 3 year old still sleeping in your room! Your DD probably feels pushed out and that's why she wants your attention at bedtime.

You need to either sort the box room out for DS or put them both in together as you said that DD has the biggest room.

You could read them BOTH a story then and explain to DD that she needs to settle down so that she doesn't wake her brother.

Keeping a 3 year old in your room just because you like his cuddles and kisses in the morning is a bit weird in my opinion and you must realise that you've got to move him out of your room at some point? Why can't he come into your room once he's awake in the morning?

IsBrexitOverYet · 23/07/2018 09:06

It definitely sounds like the little lovely is jealous and unsettled - unsurprisingly considering she’s just moved house, everyone else is together in a bedroom and she’s all on her own, also she’s a reception child, she hasn’t long bee at school and she knows that mummy and her sibling are together and she’s not. She probably feels really rejected. And I think you need to find a way to treat your children more equally.

You say you love cuddles and kisses from your DS In the morning why not include Dd in this too?
She’s got a clock, tell her when both hands are on the 6 you can come into mummies room and we can have some cuddles before we get ready for work and school.

My parents had (still have actually I think) the most incredible bed, it was wider than it is long and I remember climbing onto it on weekend mornings with all my sisters all the way through my childhood watching tv drinking milk, giving my parents drawings, mum blow drying my hair as a teen.

Feeling part of your family is so important for children’s development and can help kids feel safe and therefore sleep better.

Good luck op

ShapelyBingoWing · 23/07/2018 09:10

I find it quite bizarre that there's a room your DS could go into but you're reluctant to convert it into a bedroom for him. And I definitely think that will be feeding into your DD's sleep anxiety. After all, why should she be the only one to sleep alone?

I have some downtime with DD but it happens before bedtime and has a definite point of being done... While she's still awake. Being able to get to sleep without an adult watching over them is a skill. One that your DD, at 5, should be capable of.

I don't think letting her scream is the answer but you do need to support her to start doing this herself.

Larrythecat · 23/07/2018 13:04

lightlypoached, thanks. I have started to do that and I read to her in bed, but she can only practise downstairs before bed time. I am also making it less rushed, I realised I was constantly on the verge of going or impatient to go, so I'm now with an attitude of "I have all the time in the world to stay here" and it seems it's helping (we'll see, only a couple of days so far). She says she doesn't want to be alone and she doesn't like the dark. We bought a nice table lamp that she can switch on herself and she has already used it in the middle of the night. It's the being alone that needs to be addressed now.

Happygolucky009, gosh that's hard. She rarely wakes up after falling asleep. If she does, it tends to be in nights when she went to bed very distressed / crying. I don't think it happens more than once every couple of months, if any. It's the bedtime itself that takes long. However, now I've taken away the reading practice, it's a lot quicker. I wish I had thought of it earlier!

Ladygaladriel, yes mine goes back to sleep easily if she wakes up in the night, unless I haven't been to her (e.g. if she falls asleep waiting for me), then she would ask for me. But I never cave in when it's past bedtime, I might talk over the monitor and say it's late and goodnight, but I don't go in unless she is almost falling out of bed or has no covers. This happens very rarely.

I do call my DD to join me in bed when she wakes up. I can see many PP think I'm treating them differently and it's definitely not my intention. DD goes to nursery and will start school nursery this September with his sister, I don't think she thinks he's with me whilst she is at school.

Definitely need to sort out that 3rd room. I get that. It's not that I'm reluctant, it's that we have had no time and money. We rushed the rest of the house when we moved in, but ran out of money for the last two rooms. At the moment it's full of moving boxes, odd furniture, clothes, etc. Needs new floor and paint, plus find a place for everything it's there. DH and I have been extremely busy, but I was also ill for at least 6-8 months after in the last year and we decided to stop all extra work for the time being. I really get that we should do it, it just didn't feel a priority and we have enjoyed the company. I see it might be what it's creating issues.

So far, after posting, we are using the table lamp (dimmer) instead of the bright white ceiling lamp. We are not doing her practice reading in bed, I read her a story when I go in. I am putting her upstairs and telling her I'll be back in a few minutes, so she gets used to being alone in bed an awake. Not sure if this helps yet. I go upstairs after a while, I read the story and lie down next to her for a bit. I'm finding that these past two days, she fell asleep quicker. Leaving it's still tricky as she might wake up on way out, but I tend to say I'm only going to the bathroom and she falls asleep again. I might not do the "alone wind down time", though, I feel that it just delays sleeping, albeit it might also make her more comfortable to be alone, not sure.

OP posts:
eeanne · 23/07/2018 13:29

Why do you still have a baby monitor for a 5 year old Confused

Larrythecat · 23/07/2018 13:35

It comforts her to know we are there too. She doesn't want us to take it out. We have one in each room, we look if there has been a loud noise to check they are in bed.

OP posts:
Downtheroadfirstonleft · 23/07/2018 15:44

Time with dd downstairs, reading, then put her to bed normally and leave.

Ds in sorted out 3rd room.

It's only my opinion, but I think you are hampering their development keeping both dc so tied to you.

CantankerousCamel · 23/07/2018 15:51

My five year old takes great pride in his increased independence.

I am not sure it is healthy for them to feel increased independence is a negative thing

muddlingalong42 · 23/07/2018 16:19

Have you got room to put her in with you and your younger child in a room on his own?
I have a nearly 3 year old who finds settling difficult and I sit with him at the moment. Lots of people will tell you to “train” her but I think from where you are now that could be very traumatic for both of you, may backfire or may only work temporarily. Lots of luck, those of us with children who can’t settle alone face a lot of judgment, I just try to ignore it and do what feels right

Allthewaves · 23/07/2018 16:24

I think you need to encourage her to at least go to sleep by herself.

I'd start with her reading the book before bed. Then when your in bedroom make it 10 min of story then lights out. If make her bedroom very dull even in the beginning if you have to sit next to the bed and gradually withdraw

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