To not think i need to sleep train my 5yo

[Larrythecat]

I have two children. DS is 3 and has always gone to sleep on his own, very easily. He does not need a cuddly toy and is happy to sleep in the dark. I put him in his cot and either he goes to sleep within minutes or songs to himself until he falls asleep. I don't stay more than a few seconds to draw curtains, kiss him night-night and leave. He's the perfect sleeper.

My DD is 5yo and has never gone to sleep on her own. At the minute I sit on the bed until she falls asleep, she has a night light, two cuddly toys and a glo clock. Instead of reducing the time I spend for bedtime routine, somehow it's getting longer. It can easily take me 30-60minutes between reading with her a book or two (she's a slow reader, as she has just learnt to read this year), and then she might not want to close her eyes and try to sleep, looking at me until her eyes just close up. She cry in hysterics if I leave before she falls asleep, or if I say I'm not staying. Sudden high pitch, red face and really inconsolable cry. If I just sit there with her, all is well. If I leave, I need to wait until she's sleepy and say that I'm going to the bathroom, hoping she falls asleep.

The thing is, I know this is far from ideal, but I think it's temporary and she's only 5. The fact that her younger brother is such a great sleeper does not mean she has to be sleep trained. We are very lucky with the youngest in relation to sleep, but I think it's perfectly normal for the 5yo to need comfort and she will grow out of it. I know that if my DH puts her to bed, she does not cry when he leaves, but he only does it when I'm away or ill. My 5yo also associates the night time routine with "mummy time", because that's probably our only 1:1 in the day and she really likes it, she has told other people out of the blue about her "special time with mummy" and in her head is a big deal. I think she's a bit jealous that the 3yo sleeps in our bedroom (no room) and she sees the bedtime as her special thing. But in comparison it's taking ages and DH thinks we should do something about it. I think we could wait until she's a bit older, 6-7? As I think they are more grown up then and want to be more independent. I don't have the heart to leave her to cry and I also like seeing her falling asleep. But I'm all of a sudden feeling that I should do something and I've started to make it less fun and more boring... But not sure that's right. She does usually sleep through until 7-8am once she's fallen asleep.

Am I kidding myself? Does it improve with time? Should I expect her to fall asleep on her own? Should I just ride it out? Am I making a rod for my own back?

When DS3 was 3-4 we had this, we've now changed the routine a bit so we do have quiet time together for an hour before bed, but once he's in bed, it's a quick cuddle and kiss and that's it.

Obviously this only works if you have time to spend before bedtime - my other DC are older so don't need me at that time, but we play in the garden, read or watch a film in my bed, then at 8, goodnight!

It’s entirely up to you. Doesn’t matter what other people say or think.

I also have a 3yo who goes straight to sleep on her own. I also have a 6yo, who still sleeps in my bed and who I have to lie with to go to sleep. It’s annoying and can take up to 2 hours sometimes but he’s a much more anxious and sensitive child than my 3yo.
It’s not the end of the world and it won’t last forever.
We tried to ‘sleep train’ my 6yo a year ago, during the summer holidays. We tried every night for 6 weeks, trying both leaving him (essentially crying it out) and gradual retreat. Didn’t work AT ALL and the only thing it did was make him dread bed time, get more anxious and take longer to fall asleep, as he then lost trust in me that I wouldn’t just leave. He even started panicking that I’d actually ‘go out’ when he was asleep and leave him alone in the house.

I’ve spoken to some parents in his year 1 class and he isn’t the only one who needs company while falling asleep. He might grow up to be the type of adult who lives at home until he moves in with a partner and doesn’t like sleeping alone. So what?

Have you tried both kids sleeping in the same room? I suspect there may be a little element of jealousy behind this.
Also I do think she’s too old for this level of bedtime reassurance- nothing wrong with a cuddle and being read to but an hour is a lot! I agree that she needs ‘special time’ with you can you carve an hour out earlier in the day for her?

All behaviour is communication. She's telling you she needs dedicated time with you. If this is the only time you can manage because of work - and I'm in the same boat as you if it is, so no judgement - and you're not bothered, then things don't need to change.

I wouldn't 'sleep train' any child. Previous posters are right - she is old enough to go to sleep on her own. But this isn't about sleep. It's about her relationship with you.

My problem with it would be finding a way of not resenting it, but you sound very chilled about it.

If she's a slow reader, I'd suggest that bedtime is not the time for her to be practising: the effort involved will wake her brain up. I suspect she'd get off to sleep more quickly if you simply read to her.

You could try gradual withdrawal, which is gentle. First week doing what you currently do, next week sitting by her bed, them by the door, outside the door, top of the stairs, bottom of the stairs etc. It takes a few weeks, but is gentle and effective.

This isn't a sleep issue, it's an attention issue:

• 5 years old is too old to be inconsolably crying because mummy leaves the room. My 2.5 year old doesn't even do this. She does it to make you stay. If it was really about genuine fear she'd do it to your husband to, which you say she doesn't.

• She's sleeping alone while her little sibling sleeps with you in your room. That sends a confusing and inconsistent message about the need for mummy at night.

If I were you, I'd have dad do bedtime for the next week at least, and I'd also be looking to put both children in the same room if you can possible organize it that way. IKEA has a low bunk bed that would be safe enough for a 5 year old on top - look up Kura.

Give her 15 mins or so then get your husband to relieve you. She gets a bit of you and gets used to falling asleep independently. Once you’ve broken the link you can probably do without daddy too.

I also think both children should be in the same room, and realistically how much longer is your 3 year old going to fit in a cot?
Move them in together and get dad to do a few bedtimes in a row to break the cycle.

Agree with kids being in the same room, let them develop bonds with each other rather than just you.

And just to add, a lot of psychologists recommend cuddling to sleep at this age because that’s the time most kids tend to open up to their parents about anything that’s troubling them. Again, no right or wrong about staying with them, but developmentally it’s certainly not a bad thing.

Totally agree, my twins always open up at bedtime about anything that’s troubling them.
If that means bedtime takes a bit longer so be it. I can sacrifice a bit of my evening for the sake of their future mental health.

Thank you for your responses, lots to think about.

I had not thought about it, buy yes, you are probably right that her reading might actually keep her awake. I will try to do her reading practice at other time and leave bedtime for my reading only.

Last winter we tried dad putting her to sleep. She would still cry for me and also wake up during the night and call me, I think it's because I was in the house. For a bit, she was better but this was also because we said that once she stopped crying I would do bedtime again. Wrong strategy I think. She did reasonably well for two weeks but would ask every day if I was doing bedtime again because she had been good. Once I started again, she seemed much better and would fall asleep quicker, but the interval has been slowly increasing and I don't feel we made any progress.
When I've been away, she accepted I wasn't there but would still take her ages to fall asleep, she just wouldn't cry.
I think there's definitely some jealousy and the suggestions to have 1:1 earlier in the day might be spot on, albeit not always easy. I'll definitely try to do her reading earlier, then only my reading at night.
It's not affecting my relationship with DH, he generally uses that time to do something else, but on occasion I'd like to have more us-time at night to watch a film or something. I'm quite glad to see that some posters said their kids changes at 6-7, so I'm going to put a mental deadline and work towards that. I'll make bedtime a bit more boring and have more 1:1 during the day.
I can't really put DS in her bedroom, it would just mess DS's sleep. He is used to go into a pitch black room and chat himself to sleep. My DD needs the light on and needs silence. We have a box room full of storage boxes, we might need to go through them and make room to move him, but we both really enjoy having him with us. His breathing at night gives us comfort, he never wakes up in the night and when he wakes up he jumps over us with kisses and cuddles, there's no better way of waking up and I'm reluctant to move him and miss that. The official reason we give to everyone is that there's no room available at the moment (which is true, it requires some refurbishment), so it's not like my DD has heard us saying how lovely is to wake up with his brother. Just explaining here because I know many people frown at him still sleeping with us.

I still have some posts to read. Back in a minute.

I feel like she’s picked up the the butterflies you’re getting sleeping with her brother.

@ObjectionSir - a trained professional what? I'm a trained professional, I don't think that makes me am authority on the sleep habits of 5 year olds...

My Husband was an anxious sleeper as a child. He remembers lying awake feeling scared even at 6 years old. His mum wouldn't sit with him and he knew not to keep coming down or he'd get into trouble but it didn't mean he had learned to fall asleep on his own he had just learned to put up with being scared. He was (and still is) especially anxious by nature so I don't think it's universal but something to think about. Personally I'd rather find a balance where my son becomes independent but not by ignoring him or forcing him to stay in his room alone feeling scared.

Mammamia, yes, she's finishing reception.
I'm thinking now that maybe she feels anxious because she knows I'm leaving and there's always the threat that I will stop doing bedtime (as it happened last winter). She's definitely anxious about it. Maybe the approach should be the opposite one and I need to ensure her I'm doing bedtime, then pop out every now and then for short periods. See if that works.

CantankerousCamel she's good at independent playing and quiet time. She would go and do drawings. Or even in bed whilst waiting to me to go up. But she's anxious about me not going upstairs.

LooksBetterWithAFilter with DD everything was a fight as well... Until she was ready and then she would suddenly switch. With the bottles, she had one at night until almost 4, but then suddenly she asked for a cup and we never looked back. With nappies the same, when we tried at 2.5yo she had lots of accidents and she became distressed when it happened. She's a bit competitive, so would feel very let down and disappointed when she couldn't hold it and other friends did. We stopped trying and 6 months later she asked not to wear them anymore and it was a breeze. Same with the night time ones. She asked one day not to, and hasn't had an accident since. I'm hoping this is the same, maybe that's why I'm so relaxed about it. I wanted to check that it was realistically possible to expect that. I can see only a few had this probly, but some have done exactly that, so it gives me hope!

PitterPatterOfBigFeet oh that's quite a bad memory :( I definitely don't want to feed her anxiety, I want her to feel safe and work on that.

We tried to ‘sleep train’ my 6yo a year ago, during the summer holidays. We tried every night for 6 weeks, trying both leaving him (essentially crying it out) and gradual retreat. Didn’t work AT ALL and the only thing it did was make him dread bed time, get more anxious and take longer to fall asleep, as he then lost trust in me that I wouldn’t just leave. He even started panicking that I’d actually ‘go out’ when he was asleep and leave him alone in the house.

That's also my concern. When she goes to sleep distressed, she wakes up in the night and calls for me over the monitor.

OP - there is no 'right answer' to this except to say that you will already feel in your gut that making your daughter cry and cry alone (what many people mean by sleep training) is not the answer. If you could tolerate that you would have done it years ago!

From the perspective of a newish mum with an 18 month old who sleeps like crap, your DD sounds like an ok sleeper in that she sleeps through - she just takes a while to go down at night. It all depends on you. Do you enjoy that time with her? Does it stop you doing things you would rather be doing that you can't do any other time? Does it prevent you ever being out in the evening (it sounds like not, and that she'll settle well enough for daddy if you are out of the house).

If you are happy with things by and large (obvs we all get bored/frustrated with our routine from time to time), and she is getting enough sleep and so are you, I see no reason to change it up. As you say, she'll want her independence soon enough - why not enjoy being her favourite person for a little while longer and having that special time?

You're lucky DS is such a good sleeper, imagine if you had the pair of them needing this much input of a night!

The only thing I'd be worried about is her very extreme reaction to not getting her preference. I get the high pitched screaming from 18 mo if I try to do anything other than respond immediately in person and breastfeed every time she wakes, but I assume that is because she is little and struggles to express herself in a more articulate way. How are her verbal skills? Maybe talk to your DD more about bedtime during less intense times, try and get her to articulate why she gets so upset when mummy goes out of the room or can't do bedtime - you should be able to go for a pee at least without provoking a meltdown, and understanding why she reacts so strongly might help you find a workaround.

You say you wouldn't put DS in with her... but would you consider swapping them over so he is in her room and she sleeps in with you? It sounds like you have one very easygoing child and one quite intense, high needs child... there is nothing wrong with treating them accordingly and giving her that extra attachment she clearly craves. Surely 5 yo snuggles in the morning would be just as delightful! Did she co-sleep at all when younger? I'm wondering if maybe she did until DS arrived and now is missing that closeness and trying to replicate it with long bedtimes?

My 5 year old was like this. It stopped suddenly, he now goes to sleep by himself happily. I wouldn’t sleep train - i just read a book or worked on my laptop next to my 5 year old, until one day he told me he was ok to go to sleep.

@Ennirem A trained professional nanny with a diploma in sleep training. Not a bloody lawyer or something

Oh Yura, that's encouraging! I might take my laptop, she has actually suggested it before because I have to work from home and late often and she has suggested that I work with her. Obviously this would only be a good thing to make it boring for her IF I have had the 1:1 earlier in the say, otherwise she might feel neglected, I assume.

Ennirem we moved her to her bedroom as soon as I knew I was pregnant, so she would get used to being in her bedroom without associating it to the baby. Problem was that we moved house recently and we all had to sleep together for a week or two. Once floors were put in, she was the only one to move out. I had not thought about that. I think the answer might be to make sure she has more focused special time outside bedtime, and a more boring bedtime without any threat of leaving, so she can relax a bit. Moving DS might appease her jealousy but not sure it would fix the bedtime and it requires a lot of work to prepare that bedroom. We need to start doing it but won't happen overnight. I'm not sure about moving DD to our bedroom, it feels as a regression and she would have to sleep in the cot because there's no room for another bed (she has the big room).

Very varied but great responses. It's given me a good food for thought and it has highlighted things I had not thought about. Thank you.

@ObjectionSir I'd be interested to know what your Nanny training consisted of as to the best of my knowledge there is no standard or restriction on who can set themselves up as a nanny so to call yourself "a trained nanny" is pretty meaningless really; I also think the fact you opted to seek out and obtain a 'diploma in sleep training' (again I'd be interested to know the academic basis of this qualification!) quite probably means you did not approach the science of child and infant sleep with an entirely open mind

@LarrytheCat might possibly be a factor then... I see what you're saying about regressing, 5 is very old to be in a cot. A possible solution would be to put her on the cot mattress on the floor, floor beds can work really well for older children co-sleeping... you could even go the whole hog and put your and DH's mattress on the floor next to it to make a super-bed! although that might be going a bit too full hippy for your DH if he's already getting a bit fed up with sleep palaver.

It's lovelyyou're so considerate and supportive of your DD though, a lot of parents would just throw up their hands at this sort of thing at her age and brand it 'naughty' when really it's anything but. She sounds like a very intense, but very loving child and that's a strength long run if it can be nurtured. But not at the expense of everyone else's happiness of course. Sounds to me like you have a great plan. Good luck!