To feel sickened that this man is being referred to in this way (WARNING UPSETTING CONTENT)

[bigoldscaredycat]

This man raped a three month old baby boy to the point where the baby needed corrective surgery.

He is now in a women’s prison in Canada where he has beaten up a female inmate.

THIS is where self ID leads. Men like this being incarcerated with women and their crimes being counted as female.

torontosun.com/news/national/feds-deny-paying-for-convicted-pedophiles-implants

www.newwestrecord.ca/dangerous-offender-in-b-c-loses-appeal-for-day-or-full-parole-1.23279132

Go on, Mumsnet, delete me for deliberately misgendering a male baby rapist.

THIS.IS.A.MAN.

Perhaps this story will illustrate why feminists are so up in arms about self ID.

I would love to see even the staunchest anti-women transactivist tell me that this person is a woman and that they belong in a women’s prison.

theredjellybean this deviant is not anatomically female. He might have breast implants and his genitalia might look like female genitalia, but I'm not aware of any surgery or medication that undo male puberty. His muscles and skeleton will have the density and strength of a male. It's not just what's on the outside that counts.

And I'm not calling him 'she' because i think his gender is defined by the nature of the assault, and because he doesn't deserve the courtesy and respect I would give anyone else.

Oh yeah, how could I forget the smell! I guess a lot of trans people who transition in a certain direction wouldn't know that females generally have a stronger sense of smell, either. Might be one of the reasons they are convinced they pass in RL, when we disagree...?

That would also back up why men (such as those who post here) are more convinced that they pass too...?

Some sex offenders will do anything to erase their past. Some will also do anything to get access to women and children - including abusing the self id process and pretending to be "trans women". Where is the risk assessment? How can a serial offender be considered safe to put in s women's prison?

Something is very wrong with the safeguarding of women and children when they are put in harms way.

Which is what all the women are protesting about - that there has been a gross failure of duty of care in schools, prisons, refuges, rape crisis centres, hospitals, girl guides and so on because they have carried out zero - yes zero - impact assessments that involved consultation with women.

And this pig of a human being is a man despite what they deluded believe and say and do - he's a man who won't own his deviancy and needs to be locked up for life at the very least. Offenders like him don't rehabilitate and to pretend otherwise is again putting women and children in harms way for the sake of male delusions and egos.

The head of gender Id specialists make a submission to govt, that has been ignored by them, saying it would be naive to think male offenders particularly sex offenders won't abuse the self id process. My comment was deleted for saying that. It is not ok for women to be silenced about their safeguarding concerns and how they are and will be abused by some perpetrators,

Oh yes I indentify as a child, I want to relive my youth .

Yes true, but making the way people do or don't behave part of your classification system is surely a bit "questionable".

It isn't. I don't want even "mild mannered" males in with women. Whether they have had genital surgery, identify as women, or otherwise. The harm is obviously greater with individuals like this and the problems are highlighted more. It's as simple as that.

Do you even know who Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P. Johnson were? Ever heard of the Stonewall riots?!

Do you?! Despite the retro-transing Marsha P. Johnson was a drag queen and a gay man.

Luckily, apart from on mumsnet apparently, your outdated views are the minority.

Nope. Ask Pink News. Only 18% of the public support being able to change ID without a medical diagnosis. It appears your views are the minority ones.

It's shocking how all current safeguarding procedures for women and children are being eroded in favour of someone's gender identity. In this particular case, a criminal's gender identity.

I totally agree woman, trying to reinvent themselves, and possibly shift the gaze from their disgusting crime. One wanders that the motivation for becoming a transwoman, of men that carry out violent and sexual crimes. An extension of the crime somehow, to get access to women.

But if a person has had srs, and have grc then they are legally the gender they have changed to? Perhaps a third space would be ideal but I don't see that happening in this austerity driven economy. This is a violent individual however they identify.

The head of gender Id specialists make a submission to govt, that has been ignored by them, saying it would be naive to think male offenders particularly sex offenders won't abuse the self id process.

Yes, here it is - Written evidence submitted by British Association of Gender Identity Specialists to the Transgender Equality Inquiry:

The converse is the ever-increasing tide of referrals of patients in prison serving long or indeterminate sentences for serious sexual offences. These vastly outnumber the number of prisoners incarcerated for more ordinary, non-sexual, offences. It has been rather naïvely suggested that nobody would seek to pretend transsexual status in prison if this were not actually the case. There are, to those of us who actually interview the prisoners, in fact very many reasons why people might pretend this. These vary from the opportunity to have trips out of prison through to a desire for a transfer to the female estate (to the same prison as a co-defendant) through to the idea that a parole board will perceive somebody who is female as being less dangerous through to a [false] belief that hormone treatment will actually render one less dangerous through to wanting a special or protected status within the prison system and even (in one very well evidenced case that a highly concerned Prison Governor brought particularly to my attention) a plethora of prison intelligence information suggesting that the driving force was a desire to make subsequent sexual offending very much easier, females being generally perceived as low risk in this regard. I am sure that the Governor concerned would be happy to talk about this.

Luckily, apart from on mumsnet apparently, your outdated views are the minority.

There you go. A child rapist gets into a women's prison, assaults women, and when Mumsnet go "this looks wrong to me", we get told we're bigots.

To some people, being a trans ally means women not being able to take steps to protect other women from dangerous sex offenders. Great isn't it?

Aside from which

The T doesn't belong with LGB?!

You do like that question mark, exclamation mark combo don't you? The reason people say this is because while the LG and B are about a person's sexuality the T is not. The T is about gender identity not sexuality. It's like in Sesame Street - one of these kids is doing their own thing... Now it's time to play our game... The T the T is doing its own thing because the L, G and B are about sexual preference and the T isn't. I'm not sure it is a 'transphobic' (overused word which has lost any relevant meaning) to point out the those groups have different goals/needs.

ALittleAubergine - a person doesn't have to have SRS to gain a GRC. There are currently transwomen in the female estate, in the UK, who are fully male-bodied.

Luckily, apart from on mumsnet apparently, your outdated views are the minority.

Are you sure about that?

www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/07/03/exclusive-just-13-of-tory-voters-agree-with-governments-proposed-transgender-policy/

Only 18% agree with self-ID. This isn't lack of support for trans people per se. I do support anyone having human rights and being free from harm but opposition to the self ID in the GRA and in favour of women retaining rights and society retaining long fought for safeguards.

The British Psychological Society submitted similar evidence:

Conversely, psychologists working with forensic patients are aware of a number of cases where men convicted of sex crimes have falsely claimed to be transgender females for a number of reasons:

- As a means of demonstrating reduced risk and so gaining parole;
- As a means of explaining their sex offending aside from sexual gratification (e.g. wanting to ‘examine’ young females);
- Or as a means of separating their sex offending self (male) from their future self (female).
- In rare cases it has been thought that the person is seeking better access to females and young children through presenting in an apparently female way.

Such strategies in no way affect risk an indeed may increase it. Some people falsely believe that taking oestrogen and blocking androgen in males will reduce risk of offending, however this is not necessarily the case.

Consequently the Society recommends that the Government give appropriate assistance to transgender people within the criminal justice system; while being extremely cautious of setting law and policy such that some of the most dangerous people in society have greater latitude to offend.

Kitty claws - I do like the '?!' combo. You like ellipses. I feel the '?!' gives a sense of incredulity, which is how I feel about the attitude to trans men and women.

Well I suppose one positive is that having his dick chopped off makes him/her slightly less of a risk to children going forward. Would be preferable if it was his punishment rather than his choice... But let's hope it catches on.

Thx Pencils for those full quotes - I wasn't aware of the BPS report which adds further weight to the safeguarding concerns. I find the final conclusion a bit hard to understand that only a small percentage claim to be a woman to get access to women and children - I would have thought that would be probably be the outcome of the previous points!

It's not my battle to fight, as I'm not LGBT or any of the other initials. But as Kitty says, LGB is about same-sex attraction and T isn't. Some of what the current transactivists are fighting for would completely undermine the rights of lesbians and gay men, and that bothers me greatly.

Agree Aeroflotgirl I'd like to identify as my previous 25 year old me!!

New to this thread, mumsnet but not the debate. Hello. Anyway wading in... to me there seem to be very different elements to trans rights. I have a couple of close mates whose children are trans. One child is 18, the other is ten. There have been huge challenges for those children in terms of their mental health, particularly the 18 year old and being able to self-identify as male has brought about improved mental health and well-being for them both.

So that is on a personal level and on this level, I have no issue with trans rights. Let people dress and be who and whatever they like.

Yet it is on this macro-political level where I find myself echoing the concerns of many posters on this thread. I think the rush to self-identification in all walks of life has been done too quickly, out of historic guilt for how slowly we as a society moved to improve and create equal gay rights, culminating in equal marriage in 2013.

That journey took too long but did manage to create, over time, an environment in which gay people have been accepted, enabled and empowered to be fully who they are in all aspects of life.

The movement for trans self-identification wasn't I think even on the table ten years ago. Yes of course there were people seeking to change their gender on their birth certificate but the move for prisoners in particular to be given the right to self-identify as female was not, I think in vogue.

I think in the area of safeguarding of vulnerable people, there has to be a bias towards those vulnerable people rather than towards the individual. As someone elsewhere said, we don't see trans men clamouring to be allowed into male prisons. I can't see my friends fighting for their children to be sent to a male prison if they merited such punishment for some unspecified crime either.

What is also disturbing is how quickly this debate is shut down. That womens' concerns are immediately labelled as TERF if it doesn't particularly resonate with someone else's opinion. We are all, to some extent, on a journey with this, working out how to make this work for everyone. If we are all going to make our society better and fairer for all, then we have to hear the concerns people have. Refusing to engage with someone's fears isn't going to change their minds or win them over. It is merely going to confirm their prejudices.