To use the word "naughty"

[speedymama]

DTS are 3 yo and go to nursery. This weekend they chastised me and DH for using that word. They did something that I had asked them not to do and I told them to stop being naughty. DT1 retorted with "don't say naughty, I'm not naughty, you can't say naughty". So I responded with "well stop misbehaving then!"

I spoke to the nursery about this and they confirmed that they are not allowed to use the word naughty because it labels the child rather than the act. Now I'm all for positive parenting but there comes a time when you have to just tell how it is. I don't call my boys name but I do point out their bad behaviour and I also praise them when they are being good. In fact, I praise more than I chastise.

As a child, when my parents told me that I was being naughty, I took notice. Now my 3yo DTS read me the riot act. Well, I will not be dictated to by a toddler and if that makes me a dinosaur in terms of modern day parenting, so be it.

So am I a recalcitrant, anachronistic, old fashioned dinosaur who refuses to indulge the latest fads in parenting as dictated by a bunch of pinko liberal, arm wringing, bleeding heart busybodies?

Or smellling salts, oh no, that would be my naughty thread fantasy again!

Yes Franny! That's what I meant earlier. I can't remember why or in what context I said it to dd, but I do remember that she kept on seeking reassurance that I was "happy now".

I do say naughty though. And I am a pinko liberal.

Being Irish, pinko liberal is alien. What in fact is a pinko lib?

F&Z - you are completely right to distinguish between 1. explaining feelings and their consequences and 2. using emotional blackmail to achieve behavioural outcomes.

I am pinko and hand wringing and all that and I have said naughty as well

and ds does the "are you happy now mummy?" thing

but I know this is not ideal, and try to find different and better ways of dealing with discipline

he looks like one

and you have to wear glasses

I believe the problem with saying things like ' You are making mummy sad' is that responsibility for your emoptions is placed on the child. I think it is better to say 'Mummy feels sad when she sees ...'. that way the emotions are described to the child but blame for them is not specifically laid at their door.

For what it's worth I do think helping children recognise how they are feeling and any natural consequences of their actions is the way to help them develop their emotional intelligence. Yhe first step to doing that is to label feelings and to point out natural consequences of actions rather than telling them off for 'bad behaviour'. In the long term I think it does pay off

All a bit academic really when most of the time I tend to scream 'ffs stop doing that !!' like ademented harridan.

The theory is all well and good but none of us are perfect.

And Speedymamma - Your post made me LOL actually becauae I think I am many of the things you described but I do sometimes think I am up my own arse a lot of the time and when I sit down and think I really do not believe it matter one jot if you call your child naughty occasionnally, though I do try to avoid it if I can.

(Says the mother who's 2.5 year old shouted 'ffs' the other day at the department store - he didn't learn it from no no sireee... no not me ...)

And you don't read the mail? Am I on the right track? God thank God I'm over here.

its funny - I don't use the word naughty at all, I just don't like the feel of it. I certainly don't say "you are a naughty boy", nor do I say "scribbling on walls is naughty" or "stop being naughty". I tend to use very specific language - "we do NOT scribble on walls, we only draw on paper" (complete with hard stare lol) etc.

I do use the word silly, as in "now that's a bit silly isn't it" - probably when they are being naughty though!

I just don't like the word naughty, I feel it slightly labels them as something bad when actually they are being children.

how was the Wales's visit Minty?

oh just read a bit more of this humungous thread

I NEVER say "you are making mummy sad" either, I don't really do guilt trips.

Am I a complete wierdo for just explaining why they shouldn't do what they are doing instead of using labels like naughty etc? "Please stop blowing that whistle, it is annoying me. If you want to keep blowing it can you go into the garden" "Please do NOT hit your sister on the head with that tractor, it hurts her. If you do it again I'm going to have to take the tractor away"

I've never thought about it, it is just what I do. I'm sure there are 8 books written about why that is wrong, but ho hum

Don't like "naughty": it's not a useful word...it's non-specific and moralistic. I think the nursery are right, and if they use other words, that's great. Tetchy is good! Hate the making mummy sad thing too, find that really obnoxious. Agree with separating behaviour from person, though don't think you are doing this speedy, and have certainly not always succeeded in doing this myself as although am definitely pinko campanologist have v short fuse and fail often in my lofty parenting ideals.

oh shit jools I haven't even looked at the blog for a fortnight

I've been on heavy duty nursing duty after ds2s tonsil/adenoid/grommit op a week ago (he is only just beginning to eat again poor little thing)

been there, seen it, done it!

it's awful for them no?

oh well, when you've a minute I'm gagging for the next instalment

hope lo is soon well

Well I don't use 'naughty' but you're making me rethink the telling her that hitting kids at school makes mummy sad.

It just all tied in with the using 'kind hands' that the school uses, and making people happy etc. I think it started when I ws chatting to her about her behaviour and she looked at me and said 'mummy cross????' so I responded without having time to think and said 'no, not cross, but mummy sad when charloote smacks'. Maybe I should rethink it then, never thought of it as making her feel guilty.

Having a child with SN's you soemtimes have to use key words over and over to make them grasp the message, I thought that making her realise that her negative actions made people sad and that would be better than visualising people angry with her. A lot of the time I have to discuss her behaviour after the event with her as it's happening at school when i am not around.

it is interesting isn't it TC. What about telling her that it makes whoever she has hit, sad? That makes much more sense to me. I think it is completely fine to say "don't hit George, it hurts him and makes him sad", I just don't personally get "don't hit George, it hurts him and it makes Mummy sad". For me, personally, that is a bit removed and I think they should learn the direct consequences of their actions, not the sort of indirect effect on people's views of them, expectations etc.

I suppose it is more about taking responsibility for what they do and not changing behaviour because of other people's expectations (all connected with self-esteem and conscience etc)

Does that make sense?

Thomcat - I think with the hitting thing it's better to concentrate on the effect on the person who is hit. It's a bit abstract - her hitting someone and then you feeling sad - it's more that hitting HURTS people and therefore is a bad thing, iyswim. I think in general the clearer the cause and effect is explained, without adding in unnecesary moralistic/guilt inducing things, the better. But I am so far from being able to do this myself, and I don't even have kids with SN. .

am living in ireland with a very irish dp and the world bold (pronounced bow-ald ) gets great use.

that said we do use naughty on occasion 'dd it is very naughty to hit ds with that stick and he's sad now, say sorry please' (although this is usually uttered after the initial screech of 'o jesus stop!'.... it takes me a few seconds to supernanny myself up )

can understand the principal if it's a continous thing... the child being told every single day that they are naughty however i think some things are bad enough to warrent the child feeling bad for a minute. tbh i think sending the poor child on a guilt trip 15 times a day by saying how disappointed/sad/upset you are by their behaviour must surely be more damaging?

Yes, I do tell it makes her friends sad but as I'm never quite sure who it is she has 'flicked', then it's a bit tricky. I say 'it makes your friends sad' and then drop in it makes mummy sad as then I say that I want her to make people happy so she is happy and we can do nice thignes together after school. I've never really thought about it before but I'll be rethinking how I word things after this. We have 2 weeks off school now so perfect time for me to change things for when she goes abck after the break.

I do think there are few things more toxic to a small child than maternal disappointment.

I am liking pph's posts on this thread. There is a definite difference between "consequence" and "punishment" IMO, and you don't need to be (or pretend to be) angry/frightening/disappointed for a child to to learn from his behaviour.

agreed, greensleeves. think of the people you've heard say 'i don't mind when my mother's angry, it's when she puts on her disappointed face i can't bear'. clearly it works, but it's very negative.

(and if that makes me a dinosaur, so be it. )

Great, think I might step away as I'm obviously a "toxic" mother who has damaged her SN's child further with trying to make her understand that she can't hit other poeple