to ask how self ID will impact upon women from cultures/religions where women aren't allowed to mix with or be alone with men?

[Cismyass]

Just that really. Couldn't get the title any more concise but been pondering this for a while now but haven't seen reference to it on MN.
Having lived in Birmingham where woman only swimming sessions and the like are attended well from certain parts of the community precisely because of cultural or religious values disallowing women from mixing freely with men. Surely a transwomen with a penis would cause a right kerfuffle and impinge upon these womens' rights given their religious beliefs?
This is a DISCUSSION where there are different OPINIONS so any cries of 'transphobic' will be roundly ignored.

I guess what everyone will be hoping is that trans people won’t go somewhere where they’d obviously be causing a problem, like women only swimming sessions attended by Muslims or women’s refuges, but of course the more sensible amongst us know that they will and it will affect women and no one will care because we’re only women so we don’t matter.

What a depressing if true first reply.

What it would take, I think, would be a complaint from a member of said community. Otherwise it feels like white hand-wringing.

You’re not wrong or BU, though. Religious belief is a protected characteristic too.

If someone holds a religious belief that homosexuality should be banned, is that a protected characteristic?

From the EA guidance doc:

‘The Equality Act also says that a belief must also be worthy of respect in a democratic society and not affect other people’s fundamental rights.’

So no, I don’t think a belief that homosexuality should be banned would be protected. A belief that females and males should socialise separately and can both use a swimming pool but at different times, though, would be.

Clairtree, as far as I’m aware, gay men have no wish to parade around naked in women’s changing rooms. Or barge their way into women only swimming sessions.

Slight off-topic veer but I quite like the idea of women only swim sessions. Might be a bit better lane discipline and less fast crawl in the slow lane. I might see if my gym offers one that I can get to.

There is a point where religion is an opinion. Yes it should be respected. However, should it be more important than other people's beliefs or wishes? If someone believes they are a woman and id's as a woman then they will have the same rights.

@Sporadic they are much better for that.

You do get the occasional person who thinks “women only” means “poor swimmers only”, who then gets huffy if you want to swim lengths in the lanes. But generally it’s far politer and less aggressive. And no weirdos leering, no teenage boys divebombing or ducking about.

There are many reasons why women go to women's only swimming, not just religious practice, body confidence, fear of entitled male behaviour (at risk of sounding poncy, but there are (usually) men who intimidate women out of more public forms of exercise such as running with idiotic/ insulting comments). So many women feel exposed and vulnerable in swimming costumes.

The presence of people who are obviously biologically male (however they identify) will impact on women who feel that their safe spaces are compromised.

Religious beliefs are protected by law to the extent that those believers
should not be excluded from mainstream society, by making participation conditional on abandoning their core religious beliefs.

As a mixed race Arab woman, I know many women of faith would quietly - no Twitter storm - just drop out of sport if forced to share changing facilities, pools etc with men.
This has obvious consequences for the health of the BAME population.

Of course, many of the majority female population may have suffered trauma, or simply feel it too dangerous or uncomfortable, to share with men.
They also need separate facilities.

All women have the same right to continue to participate in mainstream society and their needs should not be swept away to satisfy the demands of a small subgroup of men.

I would support any campaign by transwomen to have separate facilities for them, so they can also feel safe.

btw, I have read comments online urging men to identify as women, precisely as a strategy to exclude Muslims from their local gym or pool.

Good post BigChoc. Given the endemic racism and Islamophobia in our society, it’s not surprising that women would quietly stop going rather than be seen as ‘playing the race card’ or ‘demanding special treatment’.

Married - I think their belief that they are a woman is worthy of respect too, but it’s not the same as being a women by dint of your biology - and where beliefs conflict, the one based in fact should prevail.

Trans women have all kinds of different beliefs (as they aren’t some kind of political monolith, they are human beings), and I don’t believe that they are united by a need to only attend swimming sessions set aside for females.

Keeping the sessions segregated by biological sex and having pools mixed most of the time enables both marginalised groups to get some exercise and enjoy the pool.

Agree with the posters who have mentioned that some women would rather drop out of women’s only sessions and not protest against the reasons why (sharing space with someone male bodied). When I sent the self I.D petition link to to a group of peers ( many of whom were Muslim women) some of the responses i had back were that they wouldn’t sign as they felt that to sign would be seen as discriminating against trans people. To quote one lady “we can’t assume they are all perverts”- I’m certain the petition doesn’t imply that at all.

Several BAME women I know have been very excited by the growth of women-only gyms & fitness studios

• it means they can participate fully in sport, all opening hours, instead of worrying they risk antagonising the majority population with women-only sessions.

However, allowing a subgroup of men into women-only gyms would negate this development,
as some women - of all races and faiths - would withdraw from such gyms.

I was wondering about this wrt the (often controversial) concept of ‘secret women’s business) in some Aboriginal cultures. There’s very little decent information online but here’s a basic link: www.indigenousaustralia.info/culture.html

I think this ridiculous trend of self ID will be temporary, as people realise what a nonsensical concept it is. Hopefully sooner rather than later. In the meantime, women (as in, human female person, which is what a woman is) will have to vote with their feet.

I started wondering about this too, as where I live (not the UK) there are a lot of open air pools with women only sections and they are full of Asian and Turkish women having a nice time at the pool. It made me realise that religious practices like modesty are probably far more restrictive in western countries than they are in the countries where the practices originated, and that in the west we get a distorted view of what it's like for the majority of women.

Anyway... I would be gutted if this source of freedom was taken away from women who prefer woman-only spaces. I would imagine that the majority of transwomen would be sensitive to this and wouldn't attend women only sessions for this reason but there's always some arsehole who has to push the agenda. It's like, there's nothing about attending mixed swimming that denies your identity as a woman, right?

The trans people I know avoid swimming altogether because
a) unless you have had a great deal of surgery and hormones, swimming costumes instantly out you as being trans - there are lumps where you don't want them, and no lumps where you do want them.
b) as it's so obvious, they instantly become a target for staring and abuse, which is awful for someone who almost certainly already lacks self confidence about their body

This is a complete non issue because
a) trans people rarely choose to swim, full stop
b) those who are so far down the transition path that they can pass wearing a swimsuit now can already go to women only swim sessions
c) even if you asked for ID, the new self ID rules are irrelevant - you can get a passport in the new gender without having a gender recognition certificate anyway.

Someone is making a mountain out of a molehill.

Reading the OP. There needs to be more understanding about the culture you are discussing , first . It isn't that Muslim women are disallowed from mixing with men . It is that , islamically, men are not allowed to enter some women's spaces . Women's spaces are seen as a sacred right in Islam . Many Muslim countries have women only facilities as well as mixed facilities , for example the ladies only beaches in the gulf , as well as mixed beaches ( there are no men only ones that women can't enter for example ). Women in some countries also have exclusively women only shopping centres , gyms , etc . ( I used to live in the various parts of this region myself ). Again, not because they are disallowed entry to male ones - there are mixed ones bag everyone can go to , but because of the culture of women having private , exclusive spaces. There is a lot of ignorance surrounding this from outsiders .

What will happen is what always happens to women. They will retreat away from these spaces - after society has spent decades encouraging women from marginalised communities to access sport /leisure facilities. The fact that this isn't even being spoken about by those determined to push self ID through shows what a white / misogynistic viewpoint it is.

To add to this - there are in some Muslim countries
Women only queues alongside mixed queues ( no men only ones)
Women only pools and mixed pools
Women only restaurants and cafes or women only sections in restaurants - no men only ones , alongside mixed ones
Women only sessions at water parks and theme parks ( but no men only )

seasure listing that women have all of those things aren't privileges, those are examples of segregation.
The sooner we move past religions having ridiculous notions that women are so far below men and that they should be kept apart from them the better. I have no time or patience for the way these religions oppress women. And for those who say "it's the woman's choice/belief too" I think the correct response is that she doesn't really have an option.

They are example of segregation . A very welcome segregation as far as women are concerned . And I was refuting the notion that women are disallowed form mixing and showing that it is in fact men, that are not permitted to enter women's spaces . That was clear , I think .

I'll tell you what will happen.

In Birmingham, and Leeds Manchester Bradford etc, TW will start going to a few sessuons. Probably with attendant social media pisturing. Then as BigChoc says many Muslim women will quietly and without feeding back, drop out.

So 6 months down the line, the leisure centre coordinators will look at their figures and targets. Ah, you know, looks like women's only swimming only attracts 35% of what it used to. You know, that session was never absolutely full anyway. I think we'd better scrap it. There's a new men's triathlon club been badgering us to put an elite swim session in anyhow.

Bye bye, another women's space! Enjoy your erasure, women!