to ask how self ID will impact upon women from cultures/religions where women aren't allowed to mix with or be alone with men?

[Cismyass]

Just that really. Couldn't get the title any more concise but been pondering this for a while now but haven't seen reference to it on MN.
Having lived in Birmingham where woman only swimming sessions and the like are attended well from certain parts of the community precisely because of cultural or religious values disallowing women from mixing freely with men. Surely a transwomen with a penis would cause a right kerfuffle and impinge upon these womens' rights given their religious beliefs?
This is a DISCUSSION where there are different OPINIONS so any cries of 'transphobic' will be roundly ignored.

I used to live in the Middle East, and my experience was quite different from Seasure’s.

Yes, you don’t see things labelled as ‘for men only’. That’s because ‘for men only’ is the default. Women’s spaces are ‘sacrosanct’ but don’t be female and try to step outside the limited range of activities allowable to women.

The lack of a men’s space doesn’t stop men from participating; the lack of a women’s space would stop women.

No, the alternatives aren't default men only . I've been to all the facilities listed - both the mixed and women only options. I was never barred from any of them and there were plenty of women around .

BigChocFrenzy wrote: I have read comments online urging men to identify as women, precisely as a strategy to exclude Muslims from their local gym or pool.

That's disturbing. I can see how it would appear a useful strategy to some groups and wonder what the legal provision would be to prevent such deplorable manipulation.

@seasure are lone / single women able to go to the mixed areas, or is this banned / considered taboo?

Clairetree1
If someone holds a religious belief that homosexuality should be banned, is that a protected characteristic?
They are entitled to that belief, but not to use it to discriminate against or harm other people.

The list of women that cannot use mixed sex spaces is a long one, and is being ignored by trans activists.
It includes women who are in coercive or controlling relationships, women who are living with domestic violence, women who have PTSD.

Its true that these women don't have an option, and its also true they will not be permitted to enjoy a public life. So self ID actively discriminates against people with 2 protected characteristics; sex and religion.
Its completely indefensible. You don't free or enable a single woman by forcing this issue, you just remove them from the public sphere.

Avocados You are referring to "genuine" transwomen, the maybe 0.5% of men who wish to be women (as much as they can)
They have never been a problem.

There is a far larger pool of fetishists, predators, TRA / MRAs who would take advantage of self-ID

Avocados single and lone women access the facilities perfectly normally . When I lived in the M.E. I did most of my shopping / relaxing / working out without dh anyway- we have different interests and work schedules .sometimes I was with friends and sometimes alone . I also have sisters working in the area ( one is a midwife the other a lecturer ) who wouldn't stay if they couldn't access stuff on their own as they're both single .

letsghostdance Many women prefer pools, saunas, fitness courses, gyms, studios, changing rooms, showers …
which are women-only,
because they feel safer and more comfortable wthout men present for those particular activities.

Feminists in India have fought to increase the number of toilets for women, to reduce the risk of rape that women there face when they try to participate in ordinary life.
I used to work (remotely) with an Indian colleague who is active in this movement, because she thinks this will improve her ability to participate safely in normal everyday activities.

It is very arrogant to say that wishing safe spaces for certain activities is not a free choice, whether by women of faith or none
Being Arab, Turkish, BAME - or white women - does not make us stupid.

Trans rights - rights for a subgroup of men - should not be prioritised over womens' rights, that generations of women have fought so hard to achieve.

In the UK,
98% of convictions for sexual offences are by men (this may fall if transwomen as counted as women)
85% of other serious offences are commutted by men
It makes sense for women, in situations where they feel vulnerable, not to be forced into proximity with men

I think Avocados makes a valid point. Most of the trans people I know avoid swimming/only go to trans only swim sessions where those exist. Or else they have physically transitioned to the point where nobody would even think to question them anyway.

That said, I do think that this is an issue which needs to be discussed as things are changing and places are becoming much more trans inclusive without pausing to think what that means. In a climate where self ID is accepted and it becomes unacceptable to question someone, that does open up women only swim sessions to trans women and trans feminine people who have not physically transitioned. For me personally, that's not an issue. But for some people I know, that is a huge issue for either cultural or trauma related reasons. I think what needs to happen is more trans swim sessions and for trans women to have some self awareness and be respectful of the women's spaces they are in (and to be fair most of the trans women I know are).

BigChocFrenzy wrote: I have read comments online urging men to identify as women, precisely as a strategy to exclude Muslims from their local gym or pool.

This is horrible if true.
Some years ago a trans woman went to a woman only funday in my area. One of the stalls was offering massages. The masseur refused to give a massage to the trans person. Boy did they kick up a fuss...

Avocado, what about the charming <a class="break-all" href="https://www-lifesitenews-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.lifesitenews.com/mobile/news/transgender-man-may-continue-using-locker-room-with-six-year-old-girls?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQECAE4AQ%3D%3D#referrer=www.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.lifesitenews.com%2Fnews%2Ftransgender-man-may-continue-using-locker-room-with-six-year-old-girls" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Colleen Francis?

I assume you're talking about gender dysphoric transsexuals. But you need to understand and acknowledge that fetishists will go to any lengths to violate women's boundaries and to validate their "womanhood".

Shouldn’t be an issue, really - they won’t be alone with men. They’ll be alone with women.

Dinosaurs, you really are one, aren't you? If men want something - anything - including that women cede our sex segregated spaces - you'll just roll over.

Oh, and what's your response to my link about Colleen Francis, Dinosaurs?

Related question - let's say the trans person IS Muslim. What happens when they want to pray in a mosque where people are segregated by gender? If women can't swim with a trans woman then presumably they can't pray with her either?

There was a huge issue about a trans person wanting to pray in the women's section in a mosque a couple of years back - in the states . The person claimed they had Reassignment surgery .
The mosque asked them to show proof of their surgery and then said they would be permitted into the area. The person in question didn't provide the evidence but kicked up a massive fuss badmouthing the mosque as being transphobic and discriminating etc . Then turned their whole story around to say that actually they were born intersex or female but were mistaken for male .They were clearly male in size , stature , appearance .
I wouldn't want to pray next to a biological man . We stand next to each other in very close proximity during prayer ( no gaps , shoulder to shoulder and feet to feet). Often ladies sections are quieter and you could find yourself in a tricky situation if you were alone .

If you look at true Islam, there's no such thing as a trans Muslim. I'll get flamed for saying this but it's the truth, just like how there's a great movement by mumsnetters stating transwomen aren't women.

They can say all they want but changing yourself from what God gave you from birth goes against everything. Islam does recognise those people who are born with mixed male/female bodies and there's a whole topic studied in religious books about this when you go to study and become an Aalim (scholar). Speak with your local mosque or female scholars in the area to learn about this chapter.

I don't know how women would react to a trans in the mosque. It such seems like it wouldn't happen but probably does nowadays. Sometimes Islam seems unclear and hard to understand when it comes to women's rights but as you go through life you realise the wisdom behind it. There are many but you can imagine when there's rows and rows of people praying in the mosque, if men were behind they'd be seeing us all from behind. We have our section behind that way they're not looking at us and we focus on our prayer and them on theirs. There's a story of Prophet Moses (Musa) in his life where he left his town and went away. He saw two sisters at a well and their father could take him in and give him a job. He had to follow them home but he walked ahead of them instead of behind so that he's not constantly looking at them and instead they are directing him from behind as to where to go to reach their home.

Anyway I digress.

I think with the laws etc it will get confusing and difficult for organisers of women only swimming groups to fight their corner. I used to go as a teen and it was organised by the local mosque. The place was packed. If a trans woman started attending it would make it very awkward. I don't know, maybe Islam saw this thing coming as we are meant to cover in front of me, we can cover less in front of Muslim women but compared to non Muslim women we'd cover less too. It's less likely a Muslim would be trans than a non Muslim so you can imagine if we visited a doctor or nurse it doesn't become a free for all for showing our body.

I can't say a trans is not a Muslim. Believing in God makes one a Muslim but there are rules a Muslim has to follow and it's to protect everyone. Becoming trans makes it an issue for women, whether Muslim or not, their safety etc and something God knew from the start. And that's just one of the wisdom reasons behind it not being a part of Islam so I can only imagine as others have said, it will just deter people away altogether.

It was driven by anti-Semitism not Islamophobia, but after it was featured in the New York Times this pool had problems with men “identifying as women” to drive out Jewish women from the women-only sessions (ie these men weren’t trans women they were just racist arseholes).

www.getreligion.org/getreligion/2016/7/3/women-only-pools-new-york-times-still-says-they-are-ok-for-muslims-but-not-jews

Using self ID to deliberately persecute women of faith is absolutely horrifying (and I’m an atheist).

I use a women only gym because I prefer the atmosphere. It’s a financially viable business model due to the Islamic women who use it. If they were all to quietly withdraw due to TW customers, there would end up being no women’s gym locally at all.

The receptionist always refers to it as a ‘female’s gym’, I thought this was just a weird speech quirk of her own, but now I realise it’s a purposeful designation, due to all this encroaching “Transwomen are women’ stuff.

It's like any situation where rights clash, really.

Some christians think that homosexuality is wrong. In the eyes of the law, they aren't allowed to act on that belief (for example by refusing service). In the same way, if a person doesn't want to share space with a trans woman or trans man, they can't insist that trans people be banned for their benefit.

Religious freedom is important - everyone should have the right to follow the religion they choose and to practice without facing oppression. But that doesn't mean those who are religious can have the law bent in their favour. And if the law is at odds with their religious beliefs, they are the ones who must accommodate it. So Christian b&b owners must accept that gay couples can stay in their b&bs, and religious women must accept that transwomen are entitled to attend swimming lessons. If they can't accept those things, they must find alternatives. That's what it means to protect human rights.

Not necessarily - religious beliefs and gender reassignment are both equal under the equality act, but there is a provision for exemptions based on biological sex. Thus it would be transwomen that would have to move over, not religious women.

I imagine they would have to start calling the sessions female only rather than woman only. Then they could legitimately only allow in female bodies people.

religious women must accept that transwomen are entitled to attend swimming lessons

but as has been pointed out further up, lots of other women like female-only sessions too - some women just prefer women-only sessions, others attend because of previous abuse etc.

*Today 12:47 BettyDuMonde

Not necessarily - religious beliefs and gender reassignment are both equal under the equality act, but there is a provision for exemptions based on biological sex. Thus it would be transwomen that would have to move over, not religious women.*

The OP is asking what will happen if self-ID is introduced. If it is, trans women's freedom to attend events for women will be protected by law. There may still be exemptions, but I'm assuming OP wants a discussion about what happens if there aren't.

Also - religious beliefs are not enshrined in law. Religious freedom is. These are two very different things. Religious people are not entitled to have their beliefs enforced by law. Hence those who believe homosexuality is wrong not being allowed to discriminate against gay people. If you have a religious belief that is not supported by a corresponding law, you cannot expect that belief to be enforced. So if the law states that trans women are allowed to attend women only events, and your religious beliefs are incompatible with that law, you are the one who has to be accommodating.

but as has been pointed out further up, lots of other women like female-only sessions too - some women just prefer women-only sessions, others attend because of previous abuse etc.

I'm sure this is true. But this isn't unique to this scenario. Women might have PTSD or feel anxiety over many things that can't be accommodated in law. You can't ban black people from gyms because someone was assaulted by a black person once and now feels anxiety about them, however real that anxiety is. A balance must be struck. It would be disproportionate and discriminatory to ban all black people from a particular place because of the discomfort of another person in the presence of black people. Similarly it would be disproportionate to ban all trans women from a particular place because of the discomfort of another person in their presence.

There's no perfect solution here - just a constantly shifting balance of rights and preferences and beliefs and laws that don't always harmonise. There's always going to be 'what about...' scenarios like the one posed by OP because part of the enormous diversity of humankind necessarily involves clashes sometimes. We're always learning how to navigate those.

If self ID goes ahead the trans belief system will be protected above other ideologies including religious beliefs and values.