To think that most Jane Austen's heroines didn't find happiness in marriage?

[bgmama]

I am a big fan and I must have read the books a hundred times, but I am starting to realize that most heroes in her books are either assholes or idiots and towards the end of the book they stop being assholes or idiots and become worthy of marrying the heroine. I am not talking only of Mr Darcy here, but most others too. AIBU to think that this transformation didn't last very long and they went back to their usual ways shortly after the marriage was consummated? And that the heroines were miserable and were told to LTB at some point during their lives?

Shumpalumpa - they may just have stopped having sex as well I suppose.

I seem to remember Mrs Bennet was one who held out hope of a boy longest though - so I don't think any of those apply.

I’ve always wondered as to if the Bingleys were newer money Caroline bingley & mrs hurst looked down so much on the Bennetts.

The Bingleys are new money, JA says so at one point, but then so is Mrs B. She's not from gentry.

I think Jane and Bingley would be fine. Darcy could revert back to his old self so there could be trouble there. And I don't think Marianne is very suited to Brandon. She's just on the rebound.

Typical new money snobs. In order to raise their own status they had to be very careful who they hung out with, a country gentleman with a bunch of daughters with no connections and few acomplishments wouldn't have cut the mustard.

@bigkite think someone upthread said they were still conjugal

Darcy is supposedly this huge snob. Grandson of an Earl. Yet he mixes with new money!

*An awful adaptation however I find it interesting due to the reaction to Lydia eloping

Oooh - enlighten us Robin!*

So in the 1940 film basically Lizzy goes home to find the entire house being packed up because they will have to move area to where they are unknown because of the scandal.

I love David Rintoul as Darcy. But then I love him in anything!

I've always thought Emma and Mr Knightley were totally off. Even in the Clueless adaptation it seemed a bit wrong and incestuous. As for Fanny Price and Edmund, don't even get me started. I did like Henry Tilney but Catherine was a bit annoying and stupid.

Elizabeth and Darcy could be ok, though I agree with PPs who said she was mercenary.

Anyone else enjoy spotting their friends and relations in JA characters ? My sister was a definite Marianne when she was younger. Unbearably annoying Fortunately she has moved on from both her Willoughby and her Brandon and married very sensibly

I’m afraid I am rather an Eleanor - boringly practical and unromantic - but would rather be single than be stuck with wishywashy mother-complex Edward

I don't think we realise nowadays how horribly precarious the lives of JA's girls were. You didn't have a roof over your head or anything for lunch unless you married.

Society said Men Support Women, period.

No discussion. You couldn't work - you didn't need a job as your loving DF, DH or DS would be paying your bills. End of.

JA was the one to point out that sometimes that wasn't the end of it. Most of her novels are about women who aren't being provided for by their families and need to marry, but don't want to be booted into sharing a bed with a weirdo for life.

JA's own life is a cracking example of this - her parents were a properly silly couple who had loads too many children they couldn't really afford.

The youngest boys were sent off to join the Navy at age 11 or something. The youngest girls - Jane and Cassandra - were kept at home till they were 17 and 15, until JA's DF gave his house and business away to the eldest DS and decided to go travelling.

JA and CA had 0 money to start with, no way of getting any, and now no roof over their head. This lasted till just before JA died.

DF died suddenly, leaving his DD exactly 0 and no pension for the wife. Having no dowry, JA was dumped by her equally skint boyfriend who married an insurance heiress.

All her adult life JA 'travelled' between increasingly grim B&Bs and rich relations' houses. Rich relations would have them 'to stay'in exchange for domestic duties.

JA was royally shat on by her family and society, and she died very young, which may have been as a result. She was outraged at the lack of generosity from her next of kin, let alone basic decency. In all her novels she makes the point that people who you should be able to rely on, you simply can't, and that decency is what you want to look for in a DH. And that decency is learnt, not given to anyone because they are in a position of importance.

Nothing to add, am a Janeite and finding this fascinating reading!

And that’s why Mrs B is so desperate to get her daughters well married. So that they all will be secure once Mr B is dead.

Thank you Robin

She doesn't come across quite so badly when you think of her in that light does she Queen?

And that’s why Mrs B is so desperate to get her daughters well married. So that they all will be secure once Mr B is dead.

There is a line in the Keira Knightly film by Brenda Blethyn which puts a more sensible slant on Mrs B - in response to Lizzie complaining that all she thinks about is marriage, Mrs B retorts something like "When you have five daughters, Lizzie, tell me what else will occupy your thoughts, and then perhaps you will understand." I thought that was a very fair point to make to a modern audience.

Anyone else enjoy spotting their friends and relations in JA characters?

Yes, and this is why JA is so utterly wonderful. Her characters are timeless and immediately familiar.

‘I’ve always thought that Mary was the real heroine of Mansfield Park. Fanny is unable to think for herself’.

Completely disagree with this. Mary is charming and good natured enough but shallow and ultimately empty, and Fanny sees through her long before anyone else does (including Edmund)

The main theme of the book is Fanny learning to trust and believe in herself and those around her finally learning to appreciate her. Yes she is shy & timid and is compared unfavourably with other heroines such as Eliza Bennett...but how could she be expected to be otherwise given the environment she is brought up in where she is positively encouraged to feel inferior?

Despite this she does assert herself when it matters...and look what happens to her when she does.

Consider the following:

Eliza Bennett (beloved 2nd daughter and her father’s favourite) refuses a proposal from Mr Collins despite the fact that accepting it would have set her family up for life The consequence to her is that her father backs her 100% and that’s the end of the matter.

Fanny Price (impoverished cousin in a precarious position in the family, put upon by everyone) refuses Henry Crawford’s proposal. The consequences to her are that she is berated, pressured to accept, reduced to tears and finally banished to Portsmouth to try to force her to learn the value of a rich husband.

Which do you think showed the most courage?

I think that Mrs B lacks the social sophistication to be demure about her daughters' marriages - but she is spot on. On one hand, we're supposed to roll our eyes and tut because she is so crass and obvious. On the other hand, she's actually being far more pro-active to care for her daughters' future. Mr B may have more gentlemanly manners, but his daughters could end up starving on the streets if Mrs B didn't force him to take some action. For all her faults, Mrs B cares deeply about the future of her daughters (partly because she can bask in reflected glory).

I can't remember - did she know about the entailment when she married? Mr B was hoodwinked by her beauty into overlooking her lack of polish/class, but I think she was similarly beguiled.

My own mother is a Mrs Jennings.

Darcy is supposedly this huge snob. Grandson of an Earl. Yet he mixes with new money!

I think that's quite realistic. Mr Bingley didn't make any of the money. I don't think we're told much about the Bingleys but my assumption has always been that the money came from the efforts of his grandfather and possibly his father, but like most people who made money from trade/industry they sent their own children off to boarding/public schools in the hope that they would pick up the accent/manners that would enable them to fit in with the old money snobs who looked down on anybody who had ever got their hands dirty.

This in spite of the fact that many aristocrats had done very well out of investing in new industries and selling off land to railway companies, mining companies and so on!

A very common consequence of sending children to public school was that they too looked down on their families' businesses and refused to get involved in the running of them, so the family ended up having to employ managers and ended up losing control of their businesses.

Fair enough - it's clear Mr Bingley and his sisters expect to live very comfortably on their inherited income and whatever they've invested it in, without ever lifting a finger for it. Normal for the times, but a generation after the French Revolution, the British aristocracy had learned nothing really.

I think JA says it was the Bingley grandfather who'd made the dosh. So it's going to go out of living memory soon and they're in the position where if they marry class, they'll probably be absorbed. Caroline Bingley would probably have done better to try and find herself a poverty stricken aristo from a very old family with not much money. Second son maybe.

Deffo true about aristocrats doing well out of investing. Sir Thomas in Mansfield Park has invested in what sounds very much for example

That was supposed to say very much like a slave plantation. Don't know where the rest of the sentence went.

Can’t see C-Bingers going for anyone who doesn’t have a bit of dosh I’m afraid. Unless it was a duke I suppose.

Isn't it partly to make the point that Darcy discriminates more on behaviour than wealth/family? True, he's not about to shack up with a farmer's daughter (and that's actually a quite high rank compared to the majority of the population) but he is friends with Bingley because the two of them get on well. Bingley has terrible sisters, no family pile to live at, and can be more than a little easily led. But he also has genuine kindness and affection for people. That's why Darcy tries to 'protect' him from the money-grabbing Bennetts. Darcy sees Mrs B as only a few steps better than Wickham, and doesn't want to see his friend living to regret his marriage.

He only learns to love Lizzie for who she truly is, not just her social charms, once she's away from her mother. Neither one of them really see each other's whole personality until they're free of the influence of Longbourn. It's like Longbourn/Mrs B are a high-pressure version of societal expectation (as indicated by the opening) and it's only when they're out of that atmosphere that they're able to show their full characters and appreciate one another. Before that there was attraction, but it doesn't really become love until they put aside their pride & prejudice against societal pressure to connect more as individuals.