To think that most Jane Austen's heroines didn't find happiness in marriage?

[bgmama]

I am a big fan and I must have read the books a hundred times, but I am starting to realize that most heroes in her books are either assholes or idiots and towards the end of the book they stop being assholes or idiots and become worthy of marrying the heroine. I am not talking only of Mr Darcy here, but most others too. AIBU to think that this transformation didn't last very long and they went back to their usual ways shortly after the marriage was consummated? And that the heroines were miserable and were told to LTB at some point during their lives?

This thread has made me look at Mrs Bennett in a whole new light. Yes, she wasn't necessarily the sharpest tool in the box, but she did seem to love all her children, if not very equally, and have their best interests at heart whereas Mr Bennett is quite the negligent parent who is quite openly contemptuous of is younger daughters, rather than actually trying to do anything about it.

Oh, this is probably the perfect place to ask, the bit at the end of p+p, where it says something like, "lydia retained all the claims to reputation that her marriage gave her" does that mean she did actually regain respectability or does it mean she never lost the bad reputation for how the marriage came about?

Caroline probably had a fairly good dowry. Darcy had no title, plenty of money, lots of land. I think once she knew she couldn't have Darcy Caroline would have settled for somebody who had less money/land but did have a title to offer. She'd have loved that. She'd have gone into dinner ahead of Mrs Darcy and her sister and sister-in-law and she'd have settled for a bit less money to secure that.

Re Lydia, I think the latter. I wonder if her later life was a bit like the end of Becky Sharp's life, but as others have said on this thread, Becky was much, much cleverer than Lydia.

Caroline was wadded enough not to have to care. There was bound to be some impoverished Sir Somebody hanging around the place who could've got over her povvo granddad in return for her 6 figure dowry.

I think the comment about Lydia is meant to mean both - she's now married and would go into dinner ahead of any unmarried sisters (there was a BBC version that showed that a long time ago) and she'd have clung to those little social rules for dear life. BUT she was also only married to a soldier so never quite top drawer, and she'd have known & resented that. Also, many people would have gossiped about her behind her back.

She'd have become a Hyacinth Bucket - constantly trying to make out that she was higher up than she really was and bitterly regretting that, but also fearfully aware that she was lucky to get away with what she had.

I think Wickham may well have abandoned her down the line, unless he was prepared to retire to his study to ignore his silly wife à la Mr Bennet.

Lydia was quite the meal ticket for him, so he'd have to have been pretty daft if he did. Actually she turned out to be a reasonable match for someone who had nothing going for him other than good looks and not many years left of those. I wouldn't be surprised if he cheated and gave her VD though.

I'm just now thinking of the similarities between Lydia and Marianne. Both are thoughtless teenagers, although Marianne seems to have a bit of an inflated sense of her own self importance and sometimes a bit of a bitch. Maybe if Lydia had parents who parented her and an illness that made her grow up she'd have done a bit better. And I suspect Marianne would have run away with Willoughby given half the chance? But for some reason Marianne is always perceived in a positive light and Lydia is not?

I feel reall sorry for Lydia actually - she's never had to feel the consequences of her actions, I suppose never taught that actions have consequences really, so she is going to come down to earth with a massive bump.

Lydia is very flirty and embarrasses Lizzie when she views her family through Darcy’s eyes. I don’t remember Marianne as being all that flirty. She was more idealistic, perhaps?

Marianne is quite embarassing when she's racing about town in Willoughby's carriage, there's a bit about where elinor and brandon talk about her not being very "worldly"...

They sound like two sides of the same coin...

I also felt sorry for Lydia but found Marianne annoying!

Hmm I always think of Mrs Dashwood as a slightly more refined Mrs B. She doesn’t really do parenting or economy - she leaves that to Elinor.

What a great thread! Austen's novels can be seen as part of a conversation in C18th society about masculinity. In the earlier part of the century masculinity was shown through polite, refined manners. By Austen's time that was changing, such that what mattered was having a good inner moral character - to be responsible and dutiful.

Most of the novels follow a pattern wherewhere the heroine falls for a man of refined manners but dubious character - eg Willoughby or Churchill. This is then gradually revealed and contrasted to the good character of the man she does marry.

So yes, I think Austen would have intended her heroines to have happy or at.least tolerable marriages, as founded on the husband's good qualities. This mattered, because it was incredibly difficult to achieve a separation in the event of adultery or cruelty - even well off women could be mademade, by law, to live with husbands who were violent. LTB not really an option in Austen's time!

My own mother is a Mrs Jennings

Mrs Jennings is a great favourite of mine Angel. I'd love to meet your mother - I, to am "awfully good at winkling" - I bet we'd get on like a house on fire.

Sir Thomas in Mansfield Park has invested in what sounds very much for example

I suspect SIr Thomas was easily involved in the slave trade .

Sorry Minges - just read your following post.

Autocorrect has a lot to answer for.

Also should be "heavily involved", not "easily involved"

I always think that Mary Crawford was Elizabeth Bennet without the morals.

Love this thread - thanks OP.
The thing about Lizzie starting to love Darcy once she's seen Pemberley - isn't there also something about houses reflecting the personality of their owners? So the fact it is so tasteful and gorgeous is some kind of insight into what Darcy is really like ( as well as doting housekeepers etc).
I thought Lizzie and Darcy would be happy because they don't really change drastically they just realise that there is a lot more to each other.
And yes to WH being OTT melodrama - felt like a 19thc soap opera.

MP was published a few years after Britain stopped participating in the slave trade, but slavery itself still existed. Just no new ones brought over. Bet he was up to the neck in it.

But for some reason Marianne is always perceived in a positive light and Lydia is not?

That's because Marianne remained a Pure and Untouched Virgin* (more by luck than judgement, I suspect), while Lydia ran away with her beau and Gave Him Her Greatest Gift.

*Or did she . . . .

Just found this on slavery in Mansfield Park, very interesting:

www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/10987048/Mansfield-Park-shows-the-dark-side-of-Jane-Austen.html

I wouldn't have got the name references.

SchadenfreudePersonified

That's a good point, I'd always assumed that Lydia and Wickham got it on pre marriage, but surely shed have been aware that that was a no-no. She was still hoping to be married at home I think?

And yes, Wickham definitely gets VD.

I've just realised that Wickham and Brandon are also about the same age??

Can I just say I love this thread?

This truly is a Thread Above All Threads.

Exploring - you are right - the bugger would have been riddled with the pox.

I hadn't thought about it before, but I'mstarting to feel very sorry for Lydia, who is, after all, just a silly, flight little girl who has been given no boundaries.