To think that most Jane Austen's heroines didn't find happiness in marriage?

[bgmama]

I am a big fan and I must have read the books a hundred times, but I am starting to realize that most heroes in her books are either assholes or idiots and towards the end of the book they stop being assholes or idiots and become worthy of marrying the heroine. I am not talking only of Mr Darcy here, but most others too. AIBU to think that this transformation didn't last very long and they went back to their usual ways shortly after the marriage was consummated? And that the heroines were miserable and were told to LTB at some point during their lives?

I've always thought that Mary was the real heroine of Mansfield Park. Fanny is unable to think for herself.

I love WH. The imagery is amazing.

Oh yes, Caroline is 100% setting Bingley up to marry Georgiana to pave the way for her marrying Darcy - that's not a reach in terms of interpretation, it's pretty obvious in the text.

I think the film went a bit too far with the grubbiness, animals in the house, etc. The Austens weren't well off but they liked to pretend they were better off than they actually were and needed to attract suitors.

Presumably one needs to write ‘lighthearted’ for the slightest bit of flippantness these days .....

Charlotte isn't marrying just a parson. Mr Collins will inherit Longbourn one day. I haven't read P&P for years but I always had the impression that Elizabeth wasn't too happy that her friend would one day be the mistress of her childhood home.

I think Elizabeth was initially quite upset but for eeeper reasons than that Charlotte’s family would inherit. Elizabeth is incredibly idealistic and I think it upsets and shocks her that her best friend isn’t equally so. She’s also upset that Charlotte would “throw herself away” like that. By the time she visits Charlotte in her new home I think Elizabeth is totally over it though.

Austen couldn't have mentioned miscarriages of course, but the obstetric history she presents seems so unusual without some kind of problem that I've always wondered is she alluding to one. She has 5 healthy children in 7 years, which realistically can't have left much room for anything more than a couple of fairly early losses tops. Probably no term stillbirths or sickly kids who don't make it out of infanthood. That would've been very good going at the time. Then nothing, in a woman who could've been 25 and can't have been more than about 33. Just a stark change. I guess it's secondary infertility, birth trauma from Lydia or maybe she's hinting that there were later early stillbirths of boys? That might explain why they'd long given up hope when Mrs B was likely not much more than 40.

I may have pondered this too much.

That's really interesting, and holds water I think. But mightn't they just have decided they couldn't afford another girl, and so chosen to stop rolling the dice? Or do you all think surely it would have been worth another try if they could have?

Elinor I hope you mean 1995 BBC x

The problem facing Jane Austen's heroines, with their acknowledged need for love and mutual sympathy, is that it is a balance between these emotional needs and the even more pressing need of actual, physical survival in an era where women of their social class cannot go out and earn their own living.

You could say there is a similar conflict in today's world, where there is a general sense that you should be tolerably happy (or at least not unhappy) in your job- but at the same time you know that you have to have a job, whether it makes you happy or unhappy. If you wanted to do well by your heroine these days, you would allow her to arrive, after a certain amount of sacrifice and struggle, at a career or a lifestyle that allowed her to feel fulfilled, but you wouldn't (because you couldn't) pretend that she should just sit on her bum and refuse to do anything until that fulfilment came along.

Maybe after p and p ends Mrs Bennett does have a baby boy in her later 40s and the Collins don't inherit after all....

But mightn't they just have decided they couldn't afford another girl, and so chosen to stop rolling the dice?

My Bennet did make it clear that they weren’t doing too well financially so that makes sense. Apparently breastfeeding was used as the most reliable form of contraception at the time and women would feed for 3-4 years for this reason. Other than that they just had the rhythm method which obviously isn’t 100% but it’s better than nothing.

That said, the class they belong to were usually having 12-15 children do a boy would have absolutely been expected at some point if they were able to keep trying.

Mr. 🙄

So. 🙄🙄

maybe she's hinting that there were later early stillbirths of boys?

Interesting conjecture Minge - possibly something genetic, do you think?

Oh could be? I hadn't thought of that, maybe.

Re stopping because of money, JA kind of presents the Bennets are pretty stupid finance wise. I have a hard time thinking they'd have the sense to limit their family to what they could afford if they weren't even willing to teach their girls some housework.

Would Mrs B have breastfed?

From what I remember The Bennett’s & Colonel Brandon’s income is the same & The colonel is always presented as being fairly wealthy.

there is only one P&P adaptation, as for the pretenders, I do not bid them good day and I send no regards to their mothers.

This with bells and ribbons on!

Love talking in P&p quotes to my parents!

I have to mention the Laurence Olivier version because nobody else has. An awful adaptation however I find it interesting due to the reaction to Lydia eloping

Would Mrs B have breastfed?

Not sure - I suspect she'd have had wet-nurses. I think that only poor people fed their own babies then, but have to admit I don't have a deep enough knowledge of the social history of the time.

An awful adaptation however I find it interesting due to the reaction to Lydia eloping

Oooh - enlighten us Robin!

From what I remember The Bennett’s & Colonel Brandon’s income is the same & The colonel is always presented as being fairly wealthy.

Wait until he has a wife five daughters squandering his income on bonnets and ribbons . . .

And they failed to practice any economy. Mind you I always think Marianne could quite easily bleed Brandon dry

I think Elizabeth was initially quite upset but for deeper reasons than that Charlotte’s family would inherit. Elizabeth is incredibly idealistic and I think it upsets and shocks her that her best friend isn’t equally so

I wondered if Charlotte’ was the equivalent of the fat/poor friend who isn’t ever supposed to have things happen to them and Elizabeth was put out she wasn’t sticking to her assigned role.

I have to admit I've always wondered why the Bennett’s were so sure there wouldn't be any more children and given up hope of boys

The Bennett's had a very good income and a good estate. They were socially above the Bingleys who were rich but unfortunately came from new money. While Mr. Bennet lived they were well off, the issue was that the girls would have almost nothing, not even a roof over their heads once he died. They had also not been given the advantages that other young ladies of their class had been given, such as a governess and a stint at a finishing school, and frequent trips to London to present them to eligible young men.This was not due to lack of money, but a sort of disinterest and laziness on their fathers part. The 2005 adaption shows their home as a somewhat chaotic and shabby farmhouse which is incorrect. They had a farm as part of their estate, but Mr. Bennet was a land owner not a farmer, and Longbourne was a gentleman's house not a farm house. It's very unlikely that they would have worn such drab clothes and the house would not have been so shabby. I assume it was depicted that way to contrast with Darcy's much more lavish estate, and to make it more dramatic that he fell for Lizzy. I think the movie only works if it is not considered a faithful adaption of the book, but just enjoyed as a film loosely based on p&p.

I have to admit I've always wondered why the Bennett’s were so sure there wouldn't be any more children and given up hope of boys

Maybe Mrs B got fed up of pushing out babies after the 5th one?!

Maybe they started practicing the pull out method or other forms of birth control?!