To think that most Jane Austen's heroines didn't find happiness in marriage?

[bgmama]

I am a big fan and I must have read the books a hundred times, but I am starting to realize that most heroes in her books are either assholes or idiots and towards the end of the book they stop being assholes or idiots and become worthy of marrying the heroine. I am not talking only of Mr Darcy here, but most others too. AIBU to think that this transformation didn't last very long and they went back to their usual ways shortly after the marriage was consummated? And that the heroines were miserable and were told to LTB at some point during their lives?

Only to those in the know!

She's my favourite- really didn't get Persuasion til I was in my 20s, whereas I read P&P and S&S at 13.

Mine too. We had to read Northanger Abbey in English when I was about 14 and then Emma as an A level set book, but neither of those did it for me. Everything fell into place, though, when I opened Persuasion during the summer holidays between LVI and UVI and read about Sir Walter.

Sir Walter Elliot, of Kellynch Hall, in Somersetshire, was a man who, for his own amusement, never took up any book but the Baronetage; there he found occupation for an idle hour, and consolation in a distressed one; there his faculties were roused into admiration and respect, by contemplating the limited remnant of the earliest patents; there any unwelcome sensations, arising from domestic affairs changed naturally into pity and contempt as he turned over the almost endless creations of the last century; and there, if every other leaf were powerless, he could read his own history with an interest which never failed. This was the page at which the favourite volume always opened:

"ELLIOT OF KELLYNCH HALL.

Glorious.

I read it in one go, moved straight onto P&P, Mansfield Park, S&S and re-read NA and Emma with renewed appreciation. Re-read them all many times since.

When I say we had to read NA in English, I mean in English lessons! I've not read any of them in other languages.

Yes! Just love how silly and pompous Sir Walter is. I think it's her most mature book and possibly why I just didn't get it before.

I have to re read them in private though. People look at me oddly if I laugh out loud on the train!

‘Persuasion’ is my favourite too. I like to think that marriage would stand the test of time, especially as it’s all about second chances. I love the whole build up. What a letter! ‘I am half agony, half hope’ 😍

Regarding corsets... (I do a talk on this as well!)

Regency corsets for women came in 2 basic types:

1. short corset - bit like a lace up bra. Only for the young and slim.
2. long corset (for the older and ahem, larger ladies). Nothing like a victorian corset, as it was fairly loose laced, and designed to make your figure more like a 'column'.

Men also wore corsets, as men's fashion was very fitted. Prinny (Prince George) certainly wore one.

And no knickers. Women mostly went 'commando'.

I agree we are projecting our ideas of marital happiness on JA heroines for whom marriage was more often a means of ensuring financial security for themselves and if they were happy with their husbands then it was a bonus. Millions of women around the world living in patrichial societies still enter these types of marriages whereby the most important considerations are the financial and social status of the man. One of my female colleagues from a different culture recently did the same thing. I suspect Elizabeth and Darcy, Elinor and Edward, Emma &Knightly, Fanny & Edmund we’re happy as they seem intellectually and emotionally compatible. I think Charlotte Lucas’s pragmatic marriage to Mr Collins sums up what most marriages of that time were like and you just had to make the best of it

I am loving this thread. A few people commented earlier about how in Tudor times people controlled their family size by extended breastfeeding etc. Most of the Georgian upper classes and some of the middle classes would have employed a wetnurse. This obviously meant that they had larger families but were freed to manage the household. Jane Austen's mother who I think was from a more upperclass background than her father sent all her children out to a wet nurse in the village. They returned home when they had been weaned and potty trained. JA had a brother who had epilepsy and learning difficulties never returned home. Not all families did this and some mothers of the same class would have breastfed their own children resulting in smaller families. Jane Austen's cousin Eliza had a son who had Autism and epilepsy and she kept him with her a cared for him devotedly through out his life so it shows that there were quite diverse approaches to motherhood within the same social class.

I do think that Jane Austen has some sympathy for Lydia as she flouts the modern behaviour standards of the time and still gets everything she wanted marriage, sex,fun and avoids the terrible fate that she would otherwise face. The fact that Wickham previously attempted to elope with Georgiana Darcy also lends her more sympathy as Georgiana is not portrayed as being silly like Lydia. This shows that Wickham was a bit of a scoundrel (I love that word).

Anne would have much more freedom married to Capitan Wentworth than other wives of the time. It was accepted that naval wives had more independence and they would be responsible for managing the family money and affairs while their husbands were at sea. Some did travel with their husbands but they would have had to be pretty formidable as conditions on ship weren't great. Jane Austen's brother was an Admiral so she knew a lot about naval life.

JA did comment more than a lot of people think on economic issues especially how they affected women. People have already mentioned that Mansfield Park subtly alludes to slavery. In Jane Austen's unfinished novel Sanditon there is a young mixed race heiress who is introduced as a character (unfortunately the book stopped their as JA died). There were a lot of young women who were the children of white slave owners in the Caribbean and black women. As they often did not marry they were their heirs. It was much more difficult for these youg women to find a husband who respected them and was not just after their money due to the racist attitudes of the times. It would be fascinating to find out what would have happened to her if JA had finished the book.

Love this thread, it's inspired me to reread so many books and order a few I've never read!

I've read somewhere that the annual salary of a labourer during the time that P&P took place was about 15-20 pounds, and he would probably have to support a family out of that. Elizabeth, with her 50 pounds of passive income, would be considerably better off, especially if she lived with another unmarried sister. Miss Bates is what Elizabeth would become if she didn't manage to get a husband, and she can still afford a live-in servant. I am not saying that their living standards would not be much lower than what they were used to, but they would still be better off than the general population, and certainly not "destitute" or "on the streets" as some PPs have suggested. Elizabeth doesn't look so selfish when she refuses Mr Collins' proposal in that light.

A few people commented earlier about how in Tudor times people controlled their family size by extended breastfeeding etc. Most of the Georgian upper classes and some of the middle classes would have employed a wetnurse

This is true but apparently they would breastfeed with the mother for about the first 6 months. I always wondered how they would handle engorgement/mastitis if they didn’t breastfeed or have breast pumps. I thought mastitis would surely take a LOT of women considering how quickly it can go bad without antibiotics.

Elizabeth doesn't look so selfish when she refuses Mr Collins' proposal in that light.

I think a lot of it is that the family home will pass out of the family.

I secretly cheered Lydia and Marianne on when they went with their hearts falling for the bad but so sexy boys Wickham and Willoughby. It’s what 15-17 year old girls do and JA must have experienced something similar at that age as her writing is so evocative of those. Intense feelings at that age. I really felt really sad for Marianne when she had to be married off to Colonel Brandon to save her reputation.

*Emma is like the Mum at playgroup whose baby is sitting up first and who always looks amazing and says things like "don't worry, we don't all have tine to brush our hair every day".

In fact, Emma is Lemon Drizzle Cake Mum!*

This made me laugh so much and sums Emma's character up beautifully 😂😂🤣

I came for the penis beaker, but I'm staying for the literary chat.

So often the way, Elinor

What exactly would've happened to Lydia if Wickham wouldn't marry her?

Her family would have disowned her - she would Never Have Been Spoken Of Again.

The likelihood is that she would have found herself another "protector" in the regiment - probably more than one, but she would never have been able to mix in society unless she was fortunate enough to have got herself a colonel or something who could have married her off to a servant as a cover for his interest in her (even so - socially she would drop several notches and not be mixing with the set she was used to.)

It is unlikely that she would have married well - "gentlemen" didn't marry each other's cast-offs. She would most probably have been shared around the regiment and ultimately ended up a gin-sodden harlot and died of the pox.

The world was very cruel to "fallen" women - there was little or no chance of redemption.

Meanwhile, her bad behaviour would have reflected upon the whole family. The other girls would have found good marriages next to impossible (all that bad blood in the family - no mane wants a wife who could be cuckolding him behind his back, so he didn't know if he was bringing up his own children or someone else's). The only chance the other girls would have had of marrying at all would have been if they entire family had nothing to do with Lydia. NOTHING. EVER.

The Gardeners would also have washed their hands of her - he may have been in trade, but they were respectable, and they had children to consider, too. Sexual "badness" (in women) was considered to rub off on others very easily.

I'm surprised by the dislike of Catherine on the thread. I have a big soft spot for her. She is young and naive, but I feel she will mature well into an intelligent woman. I can imagine she and Tilney would be very happy together.

I think so, too. Muslin aside, Henry Tilney is a pleasant and kind man, and she would be busy with her children.

I wonder if Lady Bertram had an underactive thyroid which might account for her lack of energy.

More likely sick of popping out sprogs, and pug-obsessed!

(That dog must've been about 20 by the end of the novel, and STILL having puppies )

Mastitis isn't inevitable if you don't breastfeed. I had an uncomfortable few days with mine then was ok after a week or so, no infections and just use of cabbage leaves. I agree mastitis will have killed plenty of women pre-antibiotics though. Still does in some places I think.

Gin-sodden harlot indeed!

Wickham was a bit of a scoundrel (I love that word).

Worse that that - he was a BOUNDER!

(Also - love the image of a Georgian wet-tee-shirt competition. Sorry - can't remember who suggested it, but had me giggling.)

Gin-sodden harlot indeed!

Don't knock it till you've tried it!

Mastitis isn't inevitable if you don't breastfeed.

I know that’s true, I just remember how quickly it made me so sick, and thought not that long ago I would have been a goner. I tried to find statistics on it but I think it was usually just put down to birth complications or something.

Quite possibly you would've been. The lack of specific figures is telling in itself, too.

Frankly being a gin soaked harlot sounds an appealing career move.

I found out on R4's The Rest Is History that Josephine would drench her chemise in oil to make herself alluring to Napoleon .