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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that most Jane Austen's heroines didn't find happiness in marriage?

554 replies

bgmama · 06/07/2018 12:04

I am a big fan and I must have read the books a hundred times, but I am starting to realize that most heroes in her books are either assholes or idiots and towards the end of the book they stop being assholes or idiots and become worthy of marrying the heroine. I am not talking only of Mr Darcy here, but most others too. AIBU to think that this transformation didn't last very long and they went back to their usual ways shortly after the marriage was consummated? And that the heroines were miserable and were told to LTB at some point during their lives?

OP posts:
MorbidMuch · 08/07/2018 16:54

Love this thread! So many interesting ideas and points made.

On Lizzy's comment about Pemberley and her change of heart about Darcy, as well as it being tongue-in-cheek, I always think of the description of the grounds as she arrives (see picture). To me, seeing the way Pemberley is presented gives Lizzy a symbolic insight into Darcy's mind and character. He might be grand and imposing, but he is not false in pride or character. She is drawn to his taste and realises they have more in common than she thought.

With regard to Mr and Mrs Bennet, I can't find the exact quotation right now, but at one point it mentions that Mr Bennet was taken in by Mrs Bennet's beauty and realised too late that she was weak in understanding so he took solace in finding amusement in her silly ways. I always feel that JA is pushing her readers to find a connection of the minds and not get side-tracked by appearance alone.

Mary was expecting Mr Collins to propose to her next and was prepared to accept. She had a plan to educate him more to make him a more acceptable companion for her. At the end, she becomes a good companion to her mother and is happier for not being constantly compared unfavourably to her sisters.

I'm surprised by the dislike of Catherine on the thread. I have a big soft spot for her. She is young and naive, but I feel she will mature well into an intelligent woman. I can imagine she and Tilney would be very happy together.

To think that most Jane Austen's heroines didn't find happiness in marriage?
Deadringer · 08/07/2018 16:57

Elizabeth and Darcy both believed that Wickham had no intention of marrying Lydia, and I see no reason to doubt their judgement. If Mr. Bennet refused to allow Lydia home or set her up in a house far away from Longbourne she would probably have ended up a prostitute. She might end up married to someone from a lower class, or as mistress to a man with money but that seems unlikely. She really did absolutely ruin her life and her family's reputation by her actions. Darcy's intervention truly did save them all.

Seasawride · 08/07/2018 17:07

Fuzzy Grin

I imagine Lydia would have returned home in disgrace but wickham wouldn’t have escaped Scot free as Lydia was staying in his colonels house under his protection. I think that would have been taken very seriously indeed.

In MP Maria is banashed to the country for her affair.

Deadringer · 08/07/2018 17:11

I like to think that Mr Bennett would allow her home, and brave the disgrace.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 08/07/2018 17:12

Has anyone else read The Quincunx by Charles Palliser? It's an absolute tour de force, published in 1989. The simplest way to describe it is as a pastiche of a 19th century novel, but it's a lot more complex than that. I was entranced by it. One of the things I liked about it was that it showed far more graphically and remorselessly what happened to people who slipped down the social scale than Dickens and Austen could.

It came to mind just now because of this interesting speculation about what would have happened to Lydia, and I agree that if she hadn't married Wickham she would probably have ended up in some form of prostitution. Perhaps not on the streets, but either living in a brothel or she might have been able to find a rich man to keep her while she still had her looks and figure. The best outcome she could possibly have hoped for was to marry one of these men, or perhaps to go on the stage.

Standandwait · 08/07/2018 17:16

Oh, I wanted to clarify about dowries: the way it worked in rich families, the woman's father would put up a dowry for his daughter, and the husband (or his family) would then more or less match it, in the form of a "settlement." This was actually the main discussion when the man went to ask his future father-in-law's permission to marry his daughter, and lawyers could be involved. Usually this meant cash money, land being reserved for sons even if not entailed (esp. eldest son and heir), but sometimes the income from a specific piece of land might be indicated as the source of the settlement or dowry.

The resulting money would usually have been put in "gilts," ie British government bonds, which were assumed to be paying 5% interest (something we'd kill to get nowadays BTW!). The wife would use the interest income as her "pin money" to buy things without having to justify them to her husband -- in at least one Georgette Heyer an indulgent mother pays off a feckless younger son's gambling debts repeatedly this way.

Does anyone else remember, as late as Brideshead Revisited (set 1920s and 30s) Rex Mottram gets frustrated because he agrees to "settle" money on Julia, but doesn't want to put it in gilts because (being a vulgar go-getter) he thinks it would make much better returns in other investments?

Incidentally, though usually all of women's other property automatically became her husband's on marriage, even before the Married Women's Property Act (1882) the lawyers for rich heiresses did have ways of ring-fencing her inheritance for her if they really, really wanted to. That's what happens when Plantaganet Palliser, later duke and prime minister, marries the heiress Glencora in Trollope's Palliser series. Never seen a clear explanation of how, though. Quite often in later Victorian novels provision for the second son came from the mother; the second son could even end up better off than an older sibling if the main estate was heavily mortgaged by feckless forebears.

Anyway, the wife's settlement or dower-rights was thers when her husband died, but she had also to use it to support any unmarried and unprovided children still living with her. In Sense & Sensibility, one of Mrs Dashwood's problems is that her husband dies too soon. Had he been alive when his daughters reached marriage age, he and his estate would have dowered them -- or if he had provided something in his will. Having failed to do so (another careless father), he implores the heir on his deathbed to "do right" by the girls, but the heir's wife talks him out of it, remember? So Mrs D will have to dower her girls if they are to have any dowry at all.

As for marriage at the "church door" or "church porch," yes indeed that was normal in Europe at least till the Council of Trent clarified that marriage was a sacrament (post Martin Luther) and in England much longer (because not Catholic, marriage not a sacrament). The Catholic, unlike the C of E, marriage ceremony never required the woman to promise to "obey." And it was the Catholic church, starting its battle right from its foundations, that insisted the bride as well as the groom had to consent to marriage, though of course she might still be subject to family bullying, her own worldly concerns, etc etc.

Sorry TMI I'm sure!

Standandwait · 08/07/2018 17:23

Mr Bennet -- remember Elizabeth herself gets really pissed off with him towards the end of P & P when she realises he never will take anything seriously enough even when his beloved daughters' futures are at stake. And she takes due note of the fact that Darcy, and her uncle Gardiner do what her father should have done, in chasing down Wickham and forcing him to marry Lydia etc etc.

Towards the end of the book Mrs B gets all excited about having Lydia and Wickham visit and Mr B declares that under no circumstances will she ever set foot in his house again, having disgraced herself. Since he's such a weakling his wife's tears and Elizabeth's more logical arguments about covering up the family shame change his mind in the same paragraph, I believe. But as a PP said, in Mansfield Park (which is much more religiously and morally conservative about lots of things, including Sunday travelling and performing plays), Maria Bertram never gets to see her family again after running off with another man and the dread Aunt Norris ends up living with her, a fine punishment for both women!

Standandwait · 08/07/2018 17:24

I should perhaps not read so much 19th century fiction Blush

Deadringer · 08/07/2018 17:36

Mrs Norris was awful but she was very fond of Maria.

OlennasWimple · 08/07/2018 17:37

If Mr B did take an unmarried Lydia back into his home, I would imagine Mr Collins would ban Charlotte from ever seeing her friend Lizzie again

Standandwait · 08/07/2018 17:48

Dunno Olennas, Collins is enough of a snob he probably boasted about his connection to Pemberley, don't you think?

GameOfMinges · 08/07/2018 17:51

Good point re Mr B never going after Lydia and Wickham! I wonder does that give further credence to the idea that he's supposed to be quite a bit older? Mr Gardiner is Mrs B's brother and if he were younger than her he could still be in his 30s.

GameOfMinges · 08/07/2018 17:52

I think Mr Collins would've preferred to prioritise his links with Lady Catherine. He was in quite a delicate position actually.

Ilovewhippets · 08/07/2018 17:52

Standandwait - that was interesting, thank you.
I wonder if Lady Bertram had an underactive thyroid which might account for her lack of energy.

LanaorAna2 · 08/07/2018 17:54

Standandwait that is beyond fascinating, thank you so much. I always wanted to know the nuts and bolts of the Married Woman's Prop Act. It's more important than getting the vote, to be honest.

It also gives the lie to the idea that women were broke all the time - they may have had it controlled, but they had wealth - in some ways, we're worse off because we just get less (wages) in the first place.

Trills · 08/07/2018 17:55

Have any of you watched The Lizzie Bennet Diaries?

P&P reimagined as a vlog

ElinorCadwaller · 08/07/2018 18:16

Round of applause for Standandwait.

Can I shift the conversation round to a closer look at living conditions and day-to-day lifestyle? Someone upthread mentioned that the more recent film portrayed the Bennets as living in a kind of shabby manor-cum-farmhouse, and I've seen that film also praised for its depiction of the Regency countryside. The house used in the 1995 BBC looks 'right' to me in terms of layout and style-adjoining, well-proportioned rooms. The girls are always faffing about with flowers and bonnets, they re-wear certain dresses etc. One thing that really stood out for me on a re-watch was that in winter they're basically wearing their normal clothes plus a shawl-surely they'd have been more wrapped up in a draughty house like that!

Fwiw the Emily Dickinson film I mentioned earlier was an absolute delight for period detail-including slightly wonky handmade collars. As someone who notices this kind of thing a bum note really jars.

Standandwait · 08/07/2018 18:26

Yy, Elinor, but just now what's really preying on my mind is how HOT those poor Victorian women must have been in summer. The idea of wearing a corset on a day like today is enough to make me faint without even putting it on.

No wonder in the Indian colonies the women went up to "the hills" in summer also so their DH could cavort with local ladies

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 08/07/2018 18:26

I wonder if they wore much more and warmer underwear and stockings under their gowns in the winter, as well as shawls on top? Summer gowns were made of cotton or muslin, which would have been cooler than wool. I can't dig it out at the moment (building work, house all at sixes and sevens) but I think I still have the BBC book about the making of the 1995 P&P, which had a chapter about costumes.

Standandwait, that was all fascinating!

ElinorCadwaller · 08/07/2018 18:39

I always try that explanation Gaspode-underwear! Tudor gear always looks pretty cosy, and I know there were many many layers. But the Regency style was so light.

Yes about corsets in hot climates! Although I suppose they had very very little to do, which probably helped.

ArkAtEee · 08/07/2018 20:07

@Standandwait I did a history degree and one of the chuckles one details I remember is that those ladies tended not to wear knickers... The many petticoats were considered enough to protect modesty. So maybe not so hot in those dresses after all Blush

ArkAtEee · 08/07/2018 20:09
  • chucklesome
JaneJeffer · 08/07/2018 20:18

They used to wet the front of their dresses to show off their assets. Like a Regency wet t-shirt competition.

AnneElliott · 08/07/2018 20:50

Such a great thread. I love JA and have so few people who I can talk about her with.

Am enjoying reading others' perspectives!

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 08/07/2018 21:39

I love JA

Your username is a bit of a clue. Grin

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