To think that most Jane Austen's heroines didn't find happiness in marriage?

[bgmama]

I am a big fan and I must have read the books a hundred times, but I am starting to realize that most heroes in her books are either assholes or idiots and towards the end of the book they stop being assholes or idiots and become worthy of marrying the heroine. I am not talking only of Mr Darcy here, but most others too. AIBU to think that this transformation didn't last very long and they went back to their usual ways shortly after the marriage was consummated? And that the heroines were miserable and were told to LTB at some point during their lives?

Iwasjustabouttosaythat you got me thinking about breastfeeding and how in the regency period how you fed your baby would have made a huge difference to your life and marriage, if you fed your own baby you would probably have fewer children and it would probably reduce your chance of dying in childbirth. I found this article which is very interesting in Jane Austen's time upperclass women were starting to feed their own children.
www.naomiclifford.com/breastfeeding/

Sorry here is a clickable link www.naomiclifford.com/breastfeeding/

Talking of the clothes - and whether they were too hot/ cold. These videos demonstrate women getting dressed in the 18th century - so a little bit before the books. The rich woman's over all dress isn't the correct type, but I imagine her underwear is very similar to JA's and her heroines. For the poor woman I imagine it was much the same for women of her class in the regency era.

I think the key to keeping warm/ cool was in the manifold layers of petticoats.

I found out on R4's The Rest Is History that Josephine would drench her chemise in oil to make herself alluring to Napoleon

Schadenfreude he was indeed a bounder - I remember looking up the phrase "cad and bounder" with a Polish friend who is fascinated by the English class system in literature, and to our delight, finding that "cad" describes the ungentlemanly behaviour, while "bounder" describes the low birth - what a marvellous two-for-one deal on British class prejudice that phrase is. So Wickham, being the son of Mr. Darcy senior's gamekeeper, is indeed a "bounder" as well as a "cad."

YY to a previous poster (sorry, my feed's scrolled onto a new page and I can't remember who mentioned it) who talked about that wonderful, wonderful first chapter of S&S, in which the heir's wife persuades him that the deathbed promise of supporting the widow and orphans didn't actually mean any financial support, just the odd kind letter now and then. That first chapter is one of the most wonderfully cynical first chapters in literature. (Up there with the wonderful opening of Barchester Towers in which old Bishop Grantley is slowly dying over the period of about a week at the same time as a political crisis means there's an imminent change in prime minister on the cards - and his son the archdeacon is torn between wanting his father not to die, but at the same time wishing he'd do it quickly enough that the outgoing PM might appoint him to the bishophric.)

Bgmama - firstly, thanks for the thread. It's been good fun.

The average weekly wage for an agricultural labourer in Austen's time was around 12s, so about £30 a year. And that can be considered to be very meagre, leaving labourers highly vulnerable to fluctuations in food prices (hence the considerable social unrest of the time). Labourers would also have often benefited from cheap ('peppercorn') rents.

In this light Elizabeth's income of £50 a year would have made her poor - not in the workhouse poor, but definitely poor. As a single woman, she may have found it difficult to access credit, which was as important as cash to the economy at the time.

In Emma, the text suggests that Miss Bates is constantly scrimping and saving, reliant on the charity of her friends and also the village shopkeepers. Mr Knightley suggests her status will get worse. Jane Fairfax denies herself food because she is aware of how poor the Bates' are. Contemporary manuals suggest that, with other expenses, it wasn't possible to keep a servant on less than £100 a year, and that would be a cheap servant (not a live in servant) - servants were also (understandably) unreliable in terms of the length of time they were willing to stay. So in that light Lizzie's choice not to marry Mr Collins is very courageous.

Willow and Pretzels

Thank you for the links - they are really interesting.

I was just thinking how keen I am to get my bra off at the end of the day- I would have hated being trussed up like these women.

Just regarding the idea of hot clothes for women at the time, don’t forget it was in the “little ice age”. The year 1812, which most people seem to think is when P&P is set, was coooooold:

“Spring & Summer 1812 were notably cold. The anomaly for both seasons on the whole-series (CET) mean was around -1.5C, with March, April, June, July & August having anomalies in excess of -1C. April 1812 was unusually cold, with a CET value of 5.5degC (-2.4C) & thus one of the 'top-dozen' or so cold such-named months. It was the coldest Spring since 1799, and it was not to as cold again in Spring until 1837, though in this latter year, the summer was warm. By contrast, 1812 experienced one of the coldest summers across England & Wales using the CET series (began 1659).

1. In addition to the extended cold, rainfall was often excessive. The months of February & March 1812 experienced EWP anomalies of 177% & 150% respectively, which with the cold ground, would have had a severe effect on the germination of crops sown, or about to be sown. Indeed, although April was drier than average, May, June and July were all wet (averaging ~135%), so sowing may have been impossible on heavier soils.
2. The backwardness of the crops, plus the extended wet/cold weather (with probably a lack of sunshine, though there are no contemporary records for this), meant that the harvest that year was also delayed, as well as being of a low yield. From records in Yorkshire, the harvest began around 20th September, and was not finished until the second week of November (Wintringham Parish Register).”

www.pascalbonenfant.com/18c/weather.html

YY to a previous poster (sorry, my feed's scrolled onto a new page and I can't remember who mentioned it) who talked about that wonderful, wonderful first chapter of S&S, in which the heir's wife persuades him that the deathbed promise of supporting the widow and orphans didn't actually mean any financial support, just the odd kind letter now and then. That first chapter is one of the most wonderfully cynical first chapters in literature. (Up there with the wonderful opening of Barchester Towers in which old Bishop Grantley is slowly dying over the period of about a week at the same time as a political crisis means there's an imminent change in prime minister on the cards - and his son the archdeacon is torn between wanting his father not to die, but at the same time wishing he'd do it quickly enough that the outgoing PM might appoint him to the bishophric.)

So so true fermat.

Re - being trussed up, weren't there phrases like "loosening our stays" and "letting down our back hair" used for women having a relaxing chat together

Very interesting about the weather. 1816 was The Year Without A Summer too, when crops failed and nights were long, due to a volcanic eruption in the Southern Hemisphere (although I presume hardly anybody knew that at the time). It would have been a scary and doom-laden time. Mary Shelley invented her frightening story Frankenstein that year, telling it to Byron and friends at Lake Como on a stormy and blustery evening crackling with unseasonal lightning.

All of the historical information regarding fashion/ weather/ global conflict/ laws affecting women/ etc - it really helps to put things into context (as well as being intrinsically fascinating)

Really grateful to the people who have researched and shared this background info.

I remember a year long ago when I was young (not 1812!) when August 25th (big family party) was colder than December 25th. We were supposed to be playing games outside but df lit the sitting room fire!

I can well imagine that months on end of inclement weather may be more conducive to the creative flow than balmy days.

Interesting info on the weather, especially the rain of 1812 (which was when Austen was finishing revising P&P). The rain, of course, plays a key plot role in P&P as Jane literally catches cold through being out in unexpected rain. This is entirely consistent with contemporary theories of health, which suggested that sudden changes in the weather left people vulnerable to ill health. I looked this up and one of the key medical texts of the time, Wlliam Buchan's Domestic Medicine, suggests that a key defence against this was to be outdoors regularly (so Lizzie's fondness for walking, so controversial to the Bingleys, could actually be protecting her against colds).

I can well imagine that months on end of inclement weather may be more conducive to the creative flow than balmy days.

As I live in the West of Ireland I should be some kind of creative genius then. Must start scribbling

I know not really relevant to this fab thread but anyone know what mastitis would have been known as in the Middle Ages. I have a vague recollection of milk fever but will bow to someone’s superior knowledge

I would have thought that it was milk fever, too, but I've just googles it and apparently milk fever is caused by a calcium deficiency, Someone wiser than me will have to help.

Hang on, Mr Bennet does follow Lydia to London, and Mrs Bennet is distraught he will be killed duelling Wickham. He returns home after a while, though, having expended his fatherly energy.

This video shows how women got dressed sightly earlier than the Regency (perhaps Mrs Bennet in her salad days?) - note they had massive pockets, unlike standard women's clothing these days...

the wonderful first chap of S&S re the brother's wife talking him into dumping his DM and DSis's - a cracker.

JA makes the vital point that while men inherited cash as Head of Family, they also inherited responsibilities (ie their female relations) - which were all too easy to welch on - Mrs Reid's awful son in Jane Eyre does the same to his mother and sisters.

I swear this chapter is word-for-word what happened in Jane's life, as it happens. Her DF gave the family home and business to his eldest DS, who was married to a girl rather fond of the good life. Indeed, so fond was she of nice things that she nicked Jane's piano and cabinets on the grounds JA & her DM, who were now homeless, wouldn't have anywhere to put them. As SIL go, she was the tactful sort we see a lot of on MN.

Jane's DF died suddenly, leaving JA, DM and Cassandra pretty poor, homeless etc.

Jane's DB and SIL, now Head of Family, were duty bound to house and feed them. JA & Co were never invited back for so much as a sandwich.

When she died, JA was in a B&B up the road from her own family house - her SIL thawed enough to offer 'to send my carriage' for the dying Jane to see a doctor. Jane Austen said 'I bet she enjoyed doing that' - it had been Jane's own carriage. Then she died, comic timing pitch perfect to the last.

I had no idea her brother was so dreadful! Didn't he write the rather strange epitaph on Jane's headstone, where he omitted to mention that she had been a writer? Was that because of his own unsuccessful literary ambitions?

Thankyou all so much I have learned so much from this about the climate 1812 and the fascinating post from LanaorAna

Had no idea about the first chapter from S&S mirroring her own life!!!

Oh I had whst my old doc described as ‘child birth fever’ after my twins. Felt fine to be honest. I think milk fever was mastitis which could turn septic??? Ohhh need to research now

Ah, Jane had two brothers! This is a rather interesting article about Jane's finances.

And this blog post rather handily explains the equivalence in today's money.

In ‘gone with the wind’ isn’t there talk of Scarlett’s grandmother soaking her underclothes in water so it stuck to her figure?

@Seasawride I think childbirth fever is a streptococcal infection, not related to mastitis.