To think that most Jane Austen's heroines didn't find happiness in marriage?

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I am a big fan and I must have read the books a hundred times, but I am starting to realize that most heroes in her books are either assholes or idiots and towards the end of the book they stop being assholes or idiots and become worthy of marrying the heroine. I am not talking only of Mr Darcy here, but most others too. AIBU to think that this transformation didn't last very long and they went back to their usual ways shortly after the marriage was consummated? And that the heroines were miserable and were told to LTB at some point during their lives?

I really like the story & find rewrites fascinating, but read it again as part of a book club & most of the group didn’t enjoy it. Yes, Rhys does change some of the facts, but for me it didn’t detract from the story. I like the fact that she gives a voice to a marginalised character & someone who wouldn’t traditionally have had one in history. Sorry to derail btw

This is all pre-industrial revolution, pre-urbanisation as well, isn't it

The Industrial Revolution was well under way in the UK during Jane Austen's lifetime, and so was the Agricultural Revolution. I assume the reason we see so little direct reference to it was that she didn't live anywhere with a lot of industry. It's possibly more surprising that (as far as I can recall) she doesn't allude to social unrest in rural areas and small towns caused by enclosure of common land, loss of jobs on the land from increased automation, migration of the poor to the great cities and so on - but then she doesn't really write about the world of work at all except where she knew something about it from direct experience (i.e. women's domestic work running a household) or had heard a lot about it from a trustworthy source (e.g. the Navy, where she had several relatives). She wrote superbly about what she had observed herself but her opportunities to observe were severely constrained by her lack of money and independence.

I don't think it's a derail to discuss Wide Sargasso Sea! I love that book. Jean Rhys came from a background not dissimilar to Bertha Mason's. She grew up in the Caribbean (labelled a white cockroach), moved to the UK as a young woman, never went back, led a very precarious life (three marriages, lots of affairs, no money) and suffered from depression and violent mood swings all her life. Reading WSS has added another dimension to Jane Eyre for me.

I can't read 19th century novels now without noticing casual references to the source of wealth and thinking about the people who'd been exploited to generate that wealth. Mansfield Park (Sir Thomas Bertram and slavery on his West Indian plantations), Jane Eyre (ditto), Vanity Fair (Amelia's brother and his Indian fortune, the West Indian heiress at the school), The Moonstone (appropriation of a religious artefact) and so on and so forth.

GunpowderGelatine

Proper made me laugh at Emma being lemon drizzle cake mum. So so true she’s a hideous person. Poor Harriet smith.

To be fair to Maria and julia fanny price was a grade A goody goody and asked to be a bit bullied.

I think Henry Tilley was as gay as Christmas to be honest and his sister knew and so was glad he married Catherine. I felt so sorry for her mother all those kids and home schooling. Worse than the duggers.

I don’t think you can really compare Becky and Lydia with regard to intelligence. Lydia was totally spoled by her mother and sheltered from the realities of life This was most likely because the doctors had told her no more babies. Becky had lived away from her family, had had to outwit those at her school and then lived abroad. I like to think that Lydia also would rollick around Europe, conning everyone she meets. Her great advantage over her sisters is that she does not crave respectability. Just sex and money.

Gadzooks this thread moved on fast, had not realise there were 2 more pages

Speaking of which, may we discuss Poldark (the wonderful books not the superficial, largely made-up TV series) next?

Oooh! Yes!

I'll have to hit the library - it's been half a century since I read any of Winston Graham's books. I LOVED the Poldark novels.

Has anyone read ‘Wide Sargasso Sea?’

I have - again many years ago. Jean Rhys made the young Mr Rochester a right bastard, and the casual sexual and emotional abuse of women (though not detailed, and all the more powerful for that) was horrific. Quite an erotic novel, IIRC, though far from explicit.

Can we stick to JA? I was enjoying the different opinions until it got sidetracked by WH and WSS etc. Start another discussion please!

Becky had lived away from her family, had had to outwit those at her school

In the BBC series (not sure if it's in the novel - I'd have to check), when Becky is dismissed in disgrace from the school, she teaches all the girls how to say "Kiss my arse" in French (though doesn't tell them that that is what they are saying!).

I LOVED that moment - it was a real Becky-ism, whether it was accurate or not.

Becky was a survivor - she was quick, intelligent, selfish and almost utterly ruthless - because she'd had to be. Life had been hard for her, and she was determined to make it better. Even when Becky gets old and loses her looks, she will be able to take care of herself, because she's clever and pitiless.

Lydia Bennet was a spoiled brat - not terribly bright, but totally self-obsessed. Lydia spends all her time looking for someone who will confirm her opinion that she is The Only Important Person In The World - cute when you're 2, but people get sick of it as you grow up. She isn't cruel in the way Becky can be - but she is totally unfeeling and has no thought for anyone other than herself.

She will turn into her mother - a total social embarrassment, but when Wickham abandons her, or she gets sick of not having money because they have both squandered it, she will go off with any man who flatters her. When she gets old and loses her looks, she will have to rely on the generosity of her sisters - if they haven't abandoned her to her fate.

I can admire Becky, though I'm glad I've never met her, but could only find Lydia an irritation.

Apologies Jaxhog - just lining the next literary threads up

I think Elizabeth and Darcy would be fine. JA hints at a lively relationship, which suggests to me that Darcy is a nice man under the stuck up exterior. He's also a great conversationalist with a degree of wit, like Elizabeth. I imagine they'll argue a fair bit, but the underlying affection will allow them to make up. I'd love to attend a dinner party at Pemberley for that reason.

Ann and Fred will also be ok. There will be hystronics and a lot of moaning. They'll write long, passionate letters to each other when Fred is at sea and Ann is unable to join him (being pregnant).

Tylney and Kate though... Not sure. I'm sort of hoping she die in childbirth, so he's back on the market for someone a bit more sensible. He'll be a father of lots of girls, who he'll dote on. Perhaps he'll even have a 'special friend' (male?) who stays for months and also dotes on the girls.

Marianne and the Col. Not a chance in hell! They'll take in his Ward's child, who M will hate. Willoghby will catch M at a bad moment, and they'll elope and live in sin.

Emma and Mr K. This could work. I rather like him, and he's clearly besotted. Things will start to go wrong though when her DF dies, and she realises how trapped she is. I can see her dressing like a man and going to sea. Maybe she'll meet Fred?

I don't really care enough about Fanny or Elinor.

But Lady Susan.....!

No problem Schadenfreud, I love Becky Sharpe too!

I recently gave a talk on the mothers in JA, and was not impressed by most of them! I was also surprised by how many were either absent during the action (Fanny, Catherine) or dead (Ann, Emma), leaving only 2 novels with 'influencing' mothers (Liz/Jane/Lydia, Elinor/Marianne). And, of course, Lady Susan!

I think it suggests that Jane thought women should be thinking independently about their futures, without the hampering influence of a mother. Not sure what that says about her view of her own mother!

Have to add that I have also found this thread very interesting. Thanks!

Placemarking for later reading and posting!

I just don't think Wickham would abandon Lydia! She's a meal ticket. I know he was hoping to marry money before ending up with her, but he ends up as an in-law to the gentry and with access to funds from two very wealthy men. Makes more sense than running off somewhere to start again with no money, which is what he'd have done if he left her.

It's a good point about the sources of wealth. There's also the gross exploitation of the British working classes in the background too. I mean, would the Bennets house staff and farm workers been paid any more than a pittance, enough to retire on or leave anything much to their kids? Doubtful. And the ones who've made their money through trade, the people doing the hard graft won't have got much.

I think Lydia’s a lot smarter than people give her credit for.

She did what she was supposed to do- get married and did it before any of her sisters.

Her methods may have been controversial but they worked didn’t they?

We don’t know if Wickham would have abandoned her without Darcy’s intervention. He was still with her when they were found. She seemed to still think a wedding was imminent.

Wickham is likely to have told her about his connection to Darcy and through her Mum she knew how rich he was therefore knew Wickham was a good catch money wise.

Darcy said he paid particular attention to Lizzie right from the start. Lydia was also at these events and could well have noticed this.

After all it is Lydia who tells Lizzie that Darcy was at her wedding thereby enabling the turn of events which leads to her two aging sisters to marry well.

Should we assume this ‘slip’ was accidental?

JA has lots of ‘wolves in sheeps clothing’ characters but we only see this in the male characters. I think Lydia is greatly misunderstood as is far from a silly teenager.

I like this thread too. I came for the penis beaker, but I'm staying for the literary chat.

Oh you're right of course Gaspode-I always imagine it was a later phenomenon; the Northern city where I live had such a massive, still-visible population boom in the mid 1800s. And it's so culturally linked to the Victorian era.

Earlier someone mentioned JA writing as a rebellious act. Did anyone see A Quiet Passion recently? Gorgeous, serious film about Emily Dickinson which shows her asking her father's permission to write-at night, so as not to disturb the household. Obviously a different (later, American) context but I thought it was relevant hope that's ok jax...if anyone wants to start a thread about literary frenemies I'll see you for some Becky Sharp chat. Although to be fair Emma is an absolutely classic frenemy, as is Caroline Bingley.

I might actually read P&P now-will this be my third time lucky with Austen?

What exactly would've happened to Lydia if Wickham wouldn't marry her?

Ok, I'll shut up about the glory of Winston Graham's novels. ;)

(Can't think of anything sensible to add re JA's women - increases sulking!)

Ok ok just to lower the tone: which of the JA men would be most likely to try to install a urinal in your new extension?

Fuzzy I've not read them but I've heard good things. Still I think he's more similar to, eg, Georgette Heyer, as he was writing historical fiction whereas JA was writing without the benefit of hindsight.

Lydia Bennet was a spoiled brat - not terribly bright, but totally self-obsessed. Lydia spends all her time looking for someone who will confirm her opinion that she is The Only Important Person In The World - cute when you're 2, but people get sick of it as you grow up. She isn't cruel in the way Becky can be - but she is totally unfeeling and has no thought for anyone other than herself.

I rather liked the treatment of Lydia in Murder at Pemberley for this reason; plus the problem that Jane and Elizabeth faced with a penniless widowed Lydia was clearly shown. While that's a sequel, I also liked Wide Sargasso Sea as a prequel to JE.

With regard to dowries, Very Important Marriages often had settlements written in to the marriage contract regardless of dowry. I found the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge's Scottish title of Earl and Countess of Strathearn interesting as Strathearn was a royal estate that was often settled on Scottish queens to pay for their households as both Queen Consort and Queen Dowager.

Bingley would put a urinal in his house as he would think it was a super new thing to do. He'll have fish knives as well, as new money.

Game - Lydia wouldn't have been able to secure a good marriage, having got a reputation as a loose woman, and by association her sisters would struggle (even more than they were doing at the start of the book) to get decent husbands too. If Lydia were also pregnant, well that would have been shame upon shame for the Benett family