AIBU to expect my kids to not to told off for speaking English in a welsh medium school?

[Hairyfairy01]

I have 2 dc in year 3 and 6 who attend a welsh medium primary school and have been taught in the welsh medium since they started school. However both dc are brought up in an english speaking household. English medium education at primary level is not available in this area of wales. Both dc have reported to me that they get told off for speaking English in the classroom, corridors, lunchtime and playtime by both teachers and pupil members of the school 'welsh' council. Now I have no issues with encouraging the welsh language and totally support their scheme of rewarding pupils for speaking welsh in social situations. However I do have an issue of telling kids off for speaking english, not so much in lesson time, but more at lunchtime / playtime. Surely at these 'downtime' occasions kids should be able to speak whatever language they like, be it French, Chinese or whatever. I can only imagine that this is what happens in other primary schools where children's home / first language is different to the main language of the school occurs? Are they all told off for speaking French / Chinese etc? Feeling furious but not sure if iabu?

I’ve had another thought.
Welsh is a minority language with the U.K. to keep that language alive, welsh people have had and do still domhave to fight hard not to get ‘swapped’.
It feels a bit like myself at home, speaking French. To ensure that my dcs actually speak French now as teens, I’ve had to fight very hard for that to happen. So we had rules. That they will never speak English with me but just in French for example. I’ve never answered to them when they were using English p, asking them to use french instead.
In effect, I’ve had to ensure that they did speak French as often as possible in an environment where English was the norm.

I’m wondering if in Wales, there isn’t a similar feeling. That you need to fight hard to protect welsh (because it’s a minority language so it wouod extremely easy for everyone to just switch to English instead). And that means that everyone, teachers and pupils alike, would pull up someone not following this implicit rule - that you have to speak welsh.

Fwiw, I was surprised going to Ireland to see that Irish isn’t hardly spoken even though everyone is supposed to be bilingual. Everything is done in English. I think it’s a good example of what can happen when you dint really insist on that language to be used. (As a country/population). Maybe there is that going on too. The very string wish to preserve their own heritage within an English speaking country.

There's no need for them to speak English.. Really? You don't think that's a ridiculous rule? Can you imagine if a child was told off in an English primary school for speaking Italian in the playground, for example? Providing they are taking part in lessons in Welsh, I don't see the problem.

I was in beautiful North Wales three weeks ago and one of the instructors on my course told me this and I thought he was exaggerating. He also said that people have no time for him because although he's Welsh, he doesn't speak Welsh.

Some of the local people were really off with most of us, except me, but only after they realised I was Scottish. I'm all for preserving languages - they should be preserved and used, but I think if someone can speak more than one language, they should all be encouraged.

Hindi = the language, Hindu = the religion.

I think it's insane that they don't do anything in English until year 4.

It's actually year 3, and do you seriously expect them to learn to read in Welsh and English at the same time? Of course it's more sensible to do one then the other, if they can't even read at all! How confusing would that be otherwise

That’s sounds very normal to me. Both my DC we’re in primary Welsh medium school until January and anyone who was ‘caught’ speaking English during break/lunch etc lost points for their house. They weren’t upset by it in the slightest and it was effective in helping them improve their Welsh.

Wasn't the Welsh not the thing where you were beaten at the end of the day if you had spoken Welsh in school?

And yet now kids are being told off for speaking English in school? And that's ok? I realise they're not being beaten but it's somewhat hypocritical.

Another one whose Ds went thru gaelscoileanna all thru education fully , immersive, therefore from 3rd yr in school kids had to speak Irish all time , break times included. Perfectly reasonable to become fluent in language, esp for those who don't speak it at home. Think you're massively over reacting but clearly your main issue is lack of school choice

Runningkeenster...... No comparison at all.

OP I understand you’re feeling sorry for your DC being punished for speaking English (to each other?) in the playground, but I think your best action is to remind your DC of the school policy that Welsh is spoken at all times in school. You can sympathise with your DC but tell them that it’s a school rule and whether they like it or not they have to obey it.

@Hairyfairy01 - Dc are 8 and 11 and 100 % fluent welsh

Presumably the reason they are fluent is due to the total immersion policy in the school. It is a proven method of learning.

Learning other languages is proven to improve literacy in one’s own language, but bar Patagonia as already mentioned, I’m not sure I agree with this as Welsh is so niche

Okay, it’s more indirectly. Early bilingualism makes it easier to learn other languages later on, because the language pathways are more established. Many of my contemporaries who went to welsh medium primary spoke 4 or 5 languages by the time they were 18.

I aptly assume that there is also lot of pressure on the school to preserve the Welsh language. Even if it is redubdant. These kinds of attotiteds are quite common in communities that speak dying languages. I grew up belonging to one of these communities and my family were treated horribly for choosing to speak Russian over the language that belonged to our ethnic group in particular. People can be mean when they are scared.

If the school rule is to speak Welsh when you are on school grounds then guess what. School rules are generally not suspended at break times, why should this be any different.

Being punshied for speaking English is unacceptable, so YANBU about that.

However, if there were French children in an an English school, speaking French and somewhat segregating themselves from their peers, I can see why they would be gently reminded to speak English. I used to teach English as a second language and would encourage English speaking only, as it’s not just during a lesson that a student learns the language; social communication is often better at teaching a language than formal learning.
What makes it different is that Wales has 2 languages, and I think that when there are Welsh people who cannot speak Welsh themselves, it would be pointless to discourage English.

Saoirse31, it's a really obvious comparison. I'm gobsmacked to it took until page 4 for anyone to mention it - it's a crucial bit of historical context to the discussion. When we were kids, we were taught that the Welsh not was an example of how unreasonable and ruthless and awful the English-driven educational establiment was. Oh the irony...

To be fair, a quick Google just now has suggested that it wasn't anywhere near as widespread as I'd always been taught. However, I'm not sure whether that makes it better or worse. It's been widely spoken about as a sort of cultural bogeyman, even if it was only used in a minority of schools, and we've apparently been happy to wander around for decades now widely criticising the historical educational policy of enforcing English. I never thought any Welsh medium school would be so fist-bitingly insensitive as to enforce the same policy.

Muslim child speaking Hindu? Is that a new language you've discovered

Oh FFS it probably autocorrected Hindi to Hindu and in any case the lassie's point is clear enough - it would be unlikely that a kid with south Asian heritage (for example, because there are a lot of south Asian heritage kids in England and their mother tongues are not minority languages in the world, Urdu and Hindi are big languages) in an English school would get into trouble for speaking their native language in the playground.

Sorry - "gobsmacked that". Stupid autocorrect.

I remember learning in history how awful it was that Welsh children were punished for speaking Welsh in schools in the 19thC.

Yet now it's ok to punish children for using their home language? I don't think so.

YANBU, OP. This is the reason I moved my DS to an English Medium school in the middle of Year 2, because I was absolutely fed up of him coming home in tears, because he had been punished for speaking English at play times or when he didn't know the word for something as we are first language English.

I'm a teacher in Wales myself. I know how it works, that isn't it. It's despicable.

I also think that if a parent chooses an English medium school for their child, it should be just that. However, the persistent pushing of the Welsh language onto children in English medium schools is getting worse daily. They are in English medium schools FOR A REASON. Encouraging Welsh in Welsh lessons - fine, even though I don't believe Welsh should be compulsory. Forcing it on children through all aspects of school life in an English medium school - not fine.

It's really hard work for the EAL children especially, who are struggling with learning English alone, to then have Welsh forced upon them. Yes, there is evidence to suggest that bilingual children pick up other languages quickly, but these children are also learning to read, write, spell, understand mathematics, develop socially and emotionally as well as everything else they've had to cope with. It's wrong.

That was my point. It’s was held up as a shining light as to why the English are awful and the welsh are good in my primary school (English medium).

And yet now there is a policy of doing something that seems very similar to me.

I'm a bit confused though, OP. Every county in Wales has English medium primary schools, so either you are mistaken or not telling the truth. Where abouts are you?

she said she was in Gwynedd, where apparently there are no English medium schools.
Anyway at least OP's children will be having more spent per head on them than if they were in an English medium school eh?

92 of 103 schools in Gwynedd are Welsh Medium.

The others are English Medium and dual stream.

I am also a bit surprised at the language used about a Year 3 child on here. "Repeat offender", "transgressor", etc. Seriously? The child isn't being rude, or violent, which words of this magnitude would suggest. I have always been a big supporter of the Welsh language but seriously, we are shooting ourselves in the foot when we say such ridiculous things about a child speaking English in the playground.

A child speaking Urdu in a London playground might be encouraged to speak in English, but I'd be surprised if they were made to stand against the wall or described as an offender. Putting a child, who has no interest in the politics of language, to suffer public humiliation in this way is appalling. I am not sure whether the same feelings would be involved if the child were speaking French or Spanish because there wouldn't be the same historical context.

And to all those lovely people telling the OP to go and leave the country if her child wishes to speak his native language among friends or family, again, would you say the same to somebody speaking in Polish or Danish or Arabic who had spoken to family members during the break in other English or Welsh medium public proceedings? Regardless of the school rules, there is absolutely no need for that sort of vitriol.

OK so maybe she doesn't live near any of those 11 schools...
have you thought about finding out where the English medium schools are OP?