Pre-school won't help to use toilet

[Mummymummymummmeeeee]

DS1 will be 3 at the end of July and will be starting pre-school nursery in September. I've just been to a parents welcome evening today and was a bit shocked that they will expect him to be able to use the toilet independently when he starts there, including wiping his own bottom properly without supervision and washing his hands etc. AIBU to think that this is a bit much to expect from a just turned 3 year old? I was expecting him to need to be able to do this for school by age 4 but expected him to have supervision/help at pre-school. I'll start giving him the chance to learn from tomorrow now that I know but honestly don't think he's mentally or physically ready to make a good job of it. Also a bit worried that his usual reaction at the moment if he has messy hands (eg. food or mud at the park etc) is to try to wipe his hands on my clothes! :/

Nursery school teachers cannot be expected to wipe bottoms really.

Don't be ridiculous.

Any person who cares for a child should be fully prepared to do everything that the child needs. And if he needs supporting with wiping his bottom or washing his hands then that's absolutely their job. And if they think it's not then they are in the wrong job.

The majority of 3 year olds can not reliably wipe their bottoms properly, they might wipe but it won't always be clean.

And the majority of 4-6 yr olds (and a hell of a lot of adults) do not wash their hands after going to the toilet without being reminded.

At a new parent information evening, I'm not surprised they "strongly encourage" this so that you put the effort in before Sept. Of course it's easier for them if they have more independent toileters. Having put the wind up you, they might be much more gentle and supportive in reality. You won't know until he's started there.

Most additional toiletting needs are not even identifiable until age 5 - multiple accidents are medically considered normal until then. You can't wave the phrase "presuming no SEN" as a get-out clause because children don't come pre-labelled. No child should be refused an education at 3, 5, 8 or 16 because of continence needs, whether they're just developmental or long term additional needs..

Thanks everyone for your comments, it's interesting reading such mixed opinions - I think overall the comments reflect the wide range of what's normal at this age for readiness for toilet training and/or toileting independently - those with children who have been ready earlier don't see the problem, and those with experience of DCs like my DS1 who aren't quite ready yet do think it's a problem, I'm glad I'm not the only one to think it's unreasonable to expect all children to do it and leave them to it just because some can though!

We had a try today and he did actually manage to get the paper in roughly the right place, although he couldn't get any poo on it, so we took it in turns wiping until he was clean. I've decided I'm not going to put any pressure on him or me for him to be able to do it by September - if he still can't do it well by then then I'll speak to the preschool again about them supporting him - thanks to those who've said it's illegal for him to be excluded if not fully potty trained - I'll look more into this and might try to use it to compel them to offer more support. In the mean time I'll have a look into other preschools and whether we can switch at this stage as well.

Thanks again everyone!

DS2's school had this rule, and luckily DS's poo routine meant that it wasn't an issue (he was fine weeing - although they had to put him at the front or back of the wee line because he was dead against weeing if anyone else was in the toilet (other kids a lot less concerned).

The thing was, his arms weren't physically long enough to wipe his bottom properly. We'd tried a couple of ways at home, and his fingertips only just reached (long body I guess). He's nearly 5 now, and he can just about do it. I found that the teachers had a strict rule in public, but in practise, as long as the kids weren't causing problems, they were accommodating.

DS1 didn't have this problem, his arms just seemed to be longer in comparison to his body.

Have read this thread and wondered if the kinds of foods marketed at children may contribute to the problem. If children regularly have 'loose stools' it's going to be harder for them - or anyone else - to clean up after themselves than if the stools are more sold.

Which isn't really the sort of thing I'd want to be wondering first thing in the morning - but there you go.

Both my DD’s have had completely solid stools since weaning (bar one tummy bug they both had) so that probably makes things easier.

ds struggled to get the toilet tissue into the correct place so he managed to work out it was easier for him to access from underneath and it worked well for him for a while.

There are usually at least daily opportunities to get your dc to master this skill and if each opportunity is used most children (excluding SEN) with enough support and practice are capable of doing it, not perfectly but well enough, when needed by the time they start pre school.

It's not the nicest thing to teach your dc as there is obviously poo involved and it smells, its not nice and will probably get on their hands, or clothes need changing while practising so they wont be enthusiastic learners and will find reason they cant do it, but that is not the same as not being capable. I'd still be wiping ds(14)'s bum now if he'd had his way!

It doesn't need pressure, and it isn't neglect if he doesn't do it perfectly in preschool, it is all part of the process of learning until they get it right and at his age he should be practicing this every time he goes to the toilet so he is ready for preschool.

Another thing I've noticed from the comments is a split between those who think it's important for their child to be properly clean and those who think it's fine for the child to be left to do it not so well. I think the problem can be that children will often tolerate quite a lot of discomfort without complaining because they think that that's just how it's normal for them to feel. - to all those who think it's fine I would suggest trying leaving your own bottom not properly wiped and see how quickly you start to feel uncomfortable!
I don't mind getting DS1 to try and do it himself and understand that the preschool expect this but would also expect them to prioritise care and hygiene as much as independence and help to make sure it's done properly until he can really do it himself. However I suspect that it might take about 6 months or so of practice for him to do it properly, but that if I was to wait about 6 months he would probably learn very quickly and get the hang of it straight away - he got the hang of bladder control within 24 hours because we waited for him to say he was 'ready to wear underpants' (he was already doing poos on the toilet since 18 months because they've always been solid so he could hold on until he was on the toilet)

I'm worried about this too. My little girl is 4 and starting school in September.
She attends a school nursery afternoons atm, where they can only guide them to use the toilet but not physically help. She will go into the toilet cubicle but she's not doing anything and then wets herself on the way home. She has global development delay and possible ASD and I'm really worried about when she's doing full days as she won't go to the toilet at all.

Aunt's nursery has 3 year olds that are still in nappies with no SEN. No problem.

DDs nursery are going to help toilet train 2.5 yr DD. They said to start getting her ready for when she turns 3, but they don't expect her to be able to do everything, as they ask you to bring spare knickers in and they actually do take the kids to the toilet if they are only learning.

One of my children was completely unable to do this. He wore cloth nappies which made no difference at all.

He was only just able to do it all by about a month before he started school. Fortunately his nursery was very kind and helped him.

He did have special needs but as so many others find, these were not diagnosed until much much later. Please don't assume it's all about lazy or neglectful parents.

They will strongly encourage this because many kids this age can do it independently. The more time staff spend helping individual children in the toilet who can manage themselves with encouragement, the less time they have to spend with children on other things.
I don't know what the ratio is in your nursery, but for over threes the minimum legal ratio is 1 member of staff to 13 children/ Now imagine looking after 13 kids who all need help in the toilet. It is impossible. So the more who can manage independently, the better.

Mummy Kids with dirty bottoms tend to try and scratch or rub them, or rub their trousers. Yes they may accept it as normal, but they still feel uncomfortable.

It is 1:13 for early years teachers, 1:8 form level 3 qualified staff.

It should be perfectly possible for early years practitioners to be able to cover all areas of the EYFS - including self care.

Crunchymint, that's what I was trying to say but maybe I said it in too round about a way!