Pre-school won't help to use toilet

[Mummymummymummmeeeee]

DS1 will be 3 at the end of July and will be starting pre-school nursery in September. I've just been to a parents welcome evening today and was a bit shocked that they will expect him to be able to use the toilet independently when he starts there, including wiping his own bottom properly without supervision and washing his hands etc. AIBU to think that this is a bit much to expect from a just turned 3 year old? I was expecting him to need to be able to do this for school by age 4 but expected him to have supervision/help at pre-school. I'll start giving him the chance to learn from tomorrow now that I know but honestly don't think he's mentally or physically ready to make a good job of it. Also a bit worried that his usual reaction at the moment if he has messy hands (eg. food or mud at the park etc) is to try to wipe his hands on my clothes! :/

I think it was better when children did need to be toilet trained (2 1/2 for mine) unless SEN.

Many, many children will not have diagnosed SEN by the age of 2 1/2.

Also, I remember my mum’s stories of kids soiling / wetting themselves in class and not being able to clean up or change, so maybe it’s not the kids that have changed.

I find some of the responses to this just bizarre. 'Is SEN involved?' Oh COME OFF IT. It is perfectly normal for a child to not be toilet trained at 3 and as for wiping bottoms that's a whole other skill set!

Also all the comments about preschools refusing children who aren't toilet trained as the PP said this is illegal! It certainly was the case many years ago but it's not now.

Perhaps I'm just lucky that my son attends a supportive preschool who happily assisted with toilet training at 3 years and 2 months. Helped with shitty pants for two months beyond that. And still assists with wiping his bottom at 3 years and 9 months!

OP I would also have reservations about sending my child into a setting where I know he's not going to be assisted with toilet needs.

We help ours right up to leaving us if necessary. Most children can manage by themselves by 3.5yr and learn to call us if they need help. Children just turned three need an eye kept. We don’t always know they have done a poo though unless they tell us so the more they can do themselves the better. It usually becomes obvious though if someone didn’t clean themselves enough and we can help them get clean and changed.

Ooh thanks RippleEffects good idea! :)

Totally normal for a just three year old to need help wiping after a poo. Mumsnet children are generally far more advanced in every area than the average child though OP so bear that in mind

Mine used disposables but got put in panto and soon learned

Oh no you didn't

Hahahahah!!!!!!

I'm so glad when my youngest started pre-school aged 3 they were happy to help toilet train him. Obviously I'd been completely lazy and not bothered at all before then because I did so love changing shitty nappies.

Poor DS still wasn't reliably clean by the time he started school so I got called in quite a few times as they refused to deal with. Yep, just me being lazy still, I loved the half hours trek up to the school to deal with shitty pants.

And then when he was 8 he was diagnosed with autism and ADHD. He's 11 now but still has sensory issues around toilet flushes.

So it's bloody ridiculous to say only children with diagnosed SEN should be given leeway with toilet training as lots won't be diagnosed for years yet.

My experience is that pre-schools say they need to be fully toilet trained but in reality will help if needed.

My daughter is almost 4. She's been toilet trained for almost a year with very few accidents. She's fine wiping after a wee but refuses to even try with poo. We need to tackle it over the summer as she starts reception in September and I'm not expecting help to be available then.

YANBU. My DS was 3 in February and is now out of nappies but he definitely doesn’t have the dexterity to wipe his own bottom properly. It has nothing to do with “laziness” more about coordination.

I went to see a preschool recently and told them this and the manager looked at me as if I was mad. Never mind that I saw the same preschool a year ago under a different manager and she said that they were perfectly happy to accept kids still in nappies!

Funnily enough DS’s nursery has the same ratio of staff in the preschool room (1:8) but they don’t have a problem with helping young kids with the toilet.

I’m aware he will need to do it himself before he starts school but we have another 14 months to tackle that.

I just think it's so hard....I'm a older parent and schooling has changed! I don't even think I went to nursery before I started school this was in the 70s...so no pressure on my parents to toilet train me by 3....put in then days my mum stopped using nappies and that was it.

It's not hard at all

The preschool has to adhere to the EYFS and the EYFS Development Matters document states, in the area of Health and Self Care:

22-36 months "Beginning to be independent in self-care, but still often needs support"

30-50 months "Gains more bowel and bladder control and can attend to toileting needs most of the time by themselves"

A child of just 3, who is developing with no concerns, could be at either of these stages (and some could be in the next age bracket up) There will of course be some who could developmentally be in a lower age bracket, and who need a lot more support, some of these will catch up, and others may have medical needs or have additional needs.

Of course they should help!

And even in Reception, hand washing is sometimes supervised - otherwise they either don't bother or mess about!

Ive just finished an indepth course on continence. The specialists said that the way nurseries expect children so young to have control over their bladders is not in line with their brain development and is asking far too much. They advised that children are usually almost 4 before they can start toilet training and make the proper connection between the brain and the urge to go and control. The nurseries ask far too much. This is why when my kids have started nursery there are tons of anxious parents whose kids arent toilet trained. And why it can be very stressful. Much better to wait until they are developmentally ready, its unfair of the nurseries to pile on the pressure like this. If they are looking after lre schoolers tgey should be willing to meet their needs.

I think the earlier you can toilet train , the better. I think 3 pretty reasonable... just do a bit of training with him/her

well thankfully@HildaZelda Nurserys and Pre schools are not allowed to discriminate against children who are not toilet trained ,now,my son has significant special needs he went to a mainstream nursery and although he was having assessements ,he didnt get a diagnosis untill half way through his nursery year it was fine they changed him etc

I am a childminder and noticed over the last 2 years children staying in nappies longer. One parent admitting not having the time. Parents do get stressed over it though. Our reception class will call parents to come change their child, if that child cannot do it themselves. so that means getting them out from work. I think 4 is reasonable to be toilet trained.

My DD started preschool at 2 3/4 as she was a late August baby, and yes, she needed to be using the toilet/washing hands.

Try and encourage him to wipe himself and if you concerned how well he'll do it, ask him to tell you he needs your help on arriving home.

Redland 12, yes you are correct, I used to be a childminder, and when my own DKs were small, (they are in their 40s now) to be out of nappies around 2 years old, was the norm, find it amazing a consultant would say children "need" to be 4 to j=know what to do! My DgS took himself out of nappies at 2, hated wearing them, and that was that no pressure from their Mum.The way things are going, they wuill be going to secondary school in nappies one day.

I completely get that all children are different and some get it later than others, however I’m also surprised at a consultant saying children ‘need’ to be 4 before they get it. I had one who just decided she wasn’t wearing nappies any more at 2.4 (had 2 accidents in total) and one I trained with the Oh Crap! method at 20 months who was dry within 3 days. Both dry at night by 2.5. They certainly don’t ‘need’ to be 4.

People who say they wait until their 3.5 yr old is 'ready' so they can easily toilet train - this is just a consequence of disposable nappies.

Majority of kids are capable of being toilet trained before 3 - but they need to feel the wetness/ be allowed to have accidents and adults be relaxed about it.

Our pre school do not have the staff ratio to follow kids around all day - children have free flow play and go to toilets on their own - that is something that works for the majority of 3 year olds.

Honestly parents are leaving this later and later because it's just so easy to keep in nappies now and people don't want to risk accidents. When people had to wash nappies by hand children were potty trained by 2!!

Ludicrous to say children 'need' to be 4!! My just turned 4 year old was completely toilet trained by aout 2.5 - what would it be that she 'needs' to know?!

Also - of course she has accidents - playing and doesn't go in time etc - but that's just normal for kids - she has been capabale since before turning 3 of feeling she needs a wee and remembering to run and do one! it's not complicated!

I do agree it's easier when they have a bit of speech - but my nephew (this sounds unlikely but is true!) has been able to tell his mum he needs the toilet from a year old! honestly wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen it- but he would tug on her and point at his nappy - then she would take him to a toilet or potty....

Redland12 that school is breaking the law.

Not normal here, completely accepted that some rising 3s are not totally dry and need help