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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Cultural appropriation

999 replies

Londonerlove · 23/06/2018 17:32

AIBU to be totally annoyed by cultural appropriation.
I read this today and though wtf!

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/newsbeat-44572555

I’m not a fan of kim but if she wants her hair in braids she can have her hair in braids?

Shouldn’t this be praised rather than attacked?
Is eating pasta cultural appropriation?

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 25/06/2018 10:33

I think some posters may be confusing an awareness that our ancestors may have done some unacceptable things and that it behoves us to be aware -and the Blood Libel.

Gilead · 25/06/2018 10:44

Betrand I think some posters may just be confused!

AngelsSins · 25/06/2018 10:44

I don’t see why women, of any colour, should be held responsible for the actions of men. Women never held power, and white women had very few rights themselves historically. They were never the oppressors. They aren’t responsible for what white men did.

Gilead · 25/06/2018 10:46

They aren’t responsible for what white men did.
Well, there are a couple of monarchs who may have been involved and female...

Strongmummy · 25/06/2018 10:47

@angel - White women owned slaves, white women abused slaves, white women did a lot of shit and can still be racist!! We may not have held power, but we are absolutely not guilt free!!!

Strongmummy · 25/06/2018 10:47

This thread makes me realise why I hate mainstream feminism

AngelsSins · 25/06/2018 10:52

I’m not saying they’re guilt free, I’m saying they had no power, they didn’t make laws, they couldn’t own property, they had no power. A few very rich white women would have had privilege and may have exploited that sure, but black men for example have raped and beaten many white women, that doesn’t make black men oppressors, because they had no power either.

MariaMadita · 25/06/2018 10:53

Is that part aimed at me...?

You made a mealy mouthed hint that is was “possible” that in other places “some” of the oppressors were not white. Implying that there was never oppression where white people were involved. And you’ve made it very clear you think the majority of the oppression in history was done by white people.

It’s simply not true. For a relatively short period in the past it was true. But it that is only one example out of thousands and thousands of examples of oppression in history. It’s a selective and biased interpretation of history.

....

I did not make any of these points.

Back to the possible anti-Semitism and whether I 'misinterpreted' your comment:

You made a comparison between imo occasionally misguided but still primarily non-violent reactions to the many cases of systematic oppression perpetrated by white people
and the 'reactions' Jewish people faced for hundreds of years for imagined wrongdoings like deicide or doing their best to deal with employment restriction laws and systematic discrimination (=money lending...)

or the money making activities of a few money lenders or blacksmiths. But a poor peasant Jew living on the Steppes or a child living in Hamburg or a teenage girl in Amsterdam or pregnant Jewish women in medieval London were to blame.

Still sounds to me like the money lender was indeed to blame (in your opinion)...

Seeing as you're making an argument about not blaming a whole race for the real wrongdoings (like systematic oppression) by certain individuals/past generations...

It gives accusation of deicide, inhuman money lending practices (or modern banking conspiracies...) An unfortunate amount of... Respectability.

It's a bit like using the 'original sin' and how it caused / was used to justify sexist medical practices when trying to make an argument about not blaming all men for the actions of a few rapists.

It's apples and oranges. Or more like... Spinach and ice cream.

AngelsSins · 25/06/2018 10:54

This thread makes me realise why I hate mainstream feminism

Why? Because you like to insist that women are just as bad as men and should be held just as accountable, even when everything throughout history shows otherwise?

BertrandRussell · 25/06/2018 10:55

"This thread makes me realise why I hate mainstream feminism"

Sorry? Who do you think is representing mainstream feminist views on this thread?

Strongmummy · 25/06/2018 10:57

Whether you’re male or female, if you are white in this society you already have an advantage and you have power. That power is very often abused. If you can’t see that I don’t know what to say

AngelsSins · 25/06/2018 11:01

Whether you’re male or female, if you are white in this society you already have an advantage and you have power. That power is very often abused. If you can’t see that I don’t know what to say

Absolutely I agree, but so do men, and if you can’t see that then I don’t know what to say.

Let’s stop pretending that white women have or have ever had the same levels of power as white men, it’s insulting for god sake. Your dismissing all of the horrors that women have faced in their history as unimportant or, is really offensive.

Strongmummy · 25/06/2018 11:01

On the basis mainstream feminism isn’t intersectional and there are a lot of women on here claiming that this woman should be protected as she’s a woman. I wasn’t having a dig at you @bertrand

Strongmummy · 25/06/2018 11:04

@angel, no love, coz I realise that in the grand scheme of things white women have had it hard, but black women have always had it tougher and still do!!!

MariaMadita · 25/06/2018 11:06

A few very rich white women would have had privilege and may have exploited that sure, but black men for example have raped and beaten many white women, that doesn’t make black men oppressors, because they had no power either.

The black man that raped a white woman did oppress her. He used the advantages (=privilege) granted by his sex (like superior physical strength and having a penis) to rape someone.

The white woman that wrongly accused a black man of assault/rape etc (one area where white women were undeniably the perpetrators) used their privilege (being white) to oppress black men. (=Orchestrate lynchings, death sentences etc...)

AngelsSins · 25/06/2018 11:08

On the basis mainstream feminism isn’t intersectional and there are a lot of women on here claiming that this woman should be protected as she’s a woman.

Well if it’s aimed at me, I haven’t claimed that at all! All I’m saying is historically, racism was enforced by white men (in the West), and women had little power themselves, in some cases, even less than black men. I feel strongly that that fact should not be washed over, and that women of any race, should not be held accountable for men’s actions.

Ohmydayslove · 25/06/2018 11:09

Bertrand

No I can’t I am sorry. Your point of view is valid to you totally but even your point of view seeks to criticise and control or shame other people, usually women, for their choices of clothes or hairstyles then that’s unacceptable.

You can have any view but thinking your view trumps other people’s choices isn’t on.

Like chanting outside abortion clinics.

AngelsSins · 25/06/2018 11:11

no love, coz I realise that in the grand scheme of things white women have had it hard, but black women have always had it tougher and still do!!!

I absolutely, 100% agree, I’ve never suggested otherwise. Black women were always on the bottom rung of the ladder and no one could argue with that. I think you’ve maybe misunderstood where I’m coming from, and I’ve maybe not expressed myself very well.

Gilead · 25/06/2018 11:12

Like chanting outside abortion clinics.
Bollocks.
Your grasp on reality is concerning.

AngelsSins · 25/06/2018 11:37

Strongmummy I’m genuinely sorry if I’ve offended you, that really wasn’t my intention. I don’t disagree at all that black women have had it harder. They absolutely have.

I think we’ve had slight crossed wires. My only point is that context matters, and that no woman should be held accountable for a mans actions. I’m not trying to argue that white women had it just as tough.

Strongmummy · 25/06/2018 11:45

@angel, you haven’t offended me, don’t worry. I do disagree that women were blameless but do agree we were not in charge

LeahJack · 25/06/2018 11:46

maria, no that bit wasn’t addressed to you.

And no it’s not like apples and oranges.

It’s exactly the same. It’s the theory of collective guilt. That individuals can be viewed as guilty of real or perceived wrongs purely because they share some genetic characteristics with people who lived hundreds of years earlier.

It’s absolute nonsense and it isn’t tolerated anywhere else in public life. We don’t blame the great grandchildren of rapists and murderers for their great grandparents crimes.

But in this arena it still flies, because people are so utterly terrified of challenging any views around these issues no matter how bonkers they are.

AngelsSins · 25/06/2018 11:49

I’m really not saying they were blameless, just that they didn’t hold the power that men did. That’s all.

Glad I’ve not offended you though, it’s a sensitive subject for sure Smile

Ohmydayslove · 25/06/2018 11:52

No you see I do see reality in contrast to you who only sees abstract arguments.

You just don’t like being called out that your view lead to awful bullying on internet sites.

And of course no one owns a culture! It’s a transferable life style. Deeply ingrained in some and ignored by others. Embraced by some and reflected by others.

You mix up culture with colour/race/gender. The last 3 are undeniable facts.

BertrandRussell · 25/06/2018 11:53

The faux feminism is very tedious. It's like people on another current thread getting a kick out of "catching vegetarians out".