Would it be cruel to stop buying my dad fags

[Sunnyday1203]

My dad is currently in hospital, he is being discharged ( I do have another thread going) but would really appreciate some opinions on this. Dad has dementia and a heavy smoker. Due to his smoking it is making almost impossible to find a home that will accommodate him smoking in the garden. The only way he can get Ciggs is if I buy them ( with his money). My DP thinks we should stop buying him and so making him a non smoker. I think this would be very distressing for Dad but equally I do know people seem to have problem with smokers. I don't know what do for the best

Because I don’t feel like someone should have everything taken from them because it’s inconvenient? Because I don’t feel like telling a confused, probably frightened (in a new environment) and definitely poorly patient that they can’t do one thing they enjoy is unfair?

👍 Definitely

@MrsTerryPratchett thank you, that actually means a lot. I enjoyed my work when I did it, maybe I had the luxury of more time on nights (never did finish a shift less than an hour late though!) but I enjoyed helping people to do all the things they were able to do at home, whether that be have a smoke, a wee tipple (medication allowing obviously), or a game of dominoes.

I never felt I was there for them to make my life easy, just the opposite, I was there to make their life easier.

We had a new year pub night once and the residents who came were too hungover to get out of bed the next day! But they loved it so much they had a petition and pub nights became a regular Saturday night thing! We had karaoke and everything, bloody brilliant!

Also the whole 'keep them at home'

My nan was a danger to her and others and it was heartbreaking to put her in a home and the hardest decision to make. Especially because of how independant she was beforehand.

But even with the doors and windows locked. She managed to jump out of a 3rd floor bathroom window that was slightly open to air it (she was tiny) broke her back in 2 places and still run off into a very very busy road.
It just wasnt safe for her anymore.

@Steviea88 I’m sorry it was so hard for you all. My Grannie decided herself to go into a care home and that was hard enough (it’s why I became a carer).

Sometimes keeping a relative at home isn’t possible, no matter how hard you try.

SoddingUnicorns

I don’t mean to generalise, I can only speak based on my experience which was that only patients with far-advanced dementia were in homes. And those were the ones who threw the tantrums. I’m not a carer by the way, I just spent a lot of time with them (and other patients) having visited my grandfather nearly every day for several years. So of course you know a lot more than I do. And by the way, we really didn’t have a choice about putting him in a home because he was putting his life (and ours) in danger on a daily basis by the end of the time he lived with us, and there was no alternative option.

noqont

The home where he went was a very well-run establishment and the patients were very well-cared for, which was the main concern for us. You do hear some appalling stories. It’s also a fairly thankless job to be a carer, and not everyone is able or willing to do it (thankfully people like soddingunicorns exist) and so it might be less of a financial issue, the being overstretched, and more to do with simply not having qualified and capable staff. I’m not trying to be heartless because this is a topic close to my heart, it’s just seeing how my GF was at the end, I don’t think some cigarettes would’ve made a difference. He just became a total non-person who couldn’t remember who we were, let alone that he used to smoke or drive. And in the scenario of the OP, where she is struggling to find a home to accept a smoker, I genuinely don’t understand what other option she has? People are criticising a lot but not providing a solution.

My work takes me into care homes and certainly all the ones I visit have smokers and smoking rooms and courtyards. Like alcohol and medication cigarettes for dementia patients are kept by the care staff who will make sure that they are used safely.

If he is chain smoking and will want to be taken out for a cigarette constantly I don’t see how he would be able to be cared for in a home without round the clock one to one support. I can’t see how staff would be able to take him out every hour or so otherwise.

I imagine you might have to pay extra for that.

Agree with PP, facilitate him smoking for as long as is feasible. But if push comes to shove and there are no homes that are affordable and facilitate smoking you may sadly be left with no choice. It’s not ideal at all but it might be reality.

Do you have experience with someone who has dementia? They completely cease being an “adult” in the most fundamental way.

This is such a blanket statement, every person living with dementia experiences it in a different way. They certainly do not cease to be an adult and I hope you're not a carer with that attitude.

I’m sure there will be a home that can support your father. I’m part of the management team of a duel registered residential home and approx 10% of our clients smoke. And a lot of the staff! So if your dad’s smoking needs managing either from a safety point of view or because his dementia means he finds it hard to regulate the amount he smokes the staff should be able to support him with this. That’s their job and what you pay for. It’s shouldnt be ‘can he smoke’ but ‘he has always enjoyed a cigarette so will need support with that’

Do you have experience with someone who has dementia? They completely cease being an “adult” in the most fundamental way.

This is absolutely untrue and disrespectful.

Baldricks

I’m not a carer, no. If you read my PP it explains that my experience is quite narrow as it’s only based around my personal experience and seeing/interacting with all the other patients are my GF’s home. What I am referring to, really, is advanced dementia. And it is my personal belief that someone with advanced dementia is much more of a child than an adult in their behaviours and the way in which one interacts with them. Again this is just from my experience.

Stompythedinosaur

How in the world is this disrespectful? My GF was absolutely like a child at the end. This doesn’t mean that we didn’t respect him or do his best for him, but interacting with him was seriously like talking to a 2 year old. He threw constant tantrums, would not accept anything that was presented to him, refused to do most things and was in no way, shape or form able to be responsible for himself: he couldn’t remember how to put a jumper on for goodness sake.

How is it disrespectful to say that that is not being an adult? He had 0 of his personality left. He didn’t remember who we were.

don’t think that it’s the same with a dementia patient, sorry. They don’t have any real level of independence because of the nature of the disease. Decisions need to be made for them constantly, and I am surprised that as an ex-carer you think that time should be dedicated to facilitating something completely unnecessary such as smoking.

Woah!

1 - It's a person with dementia, not a dementia patient. Their disease does not define them.

2 - People with dementia are indeed independent people with the right to make decisions, even ones that are bad for them or you dont agree with.

3 - Just because someone cannot make a decision in one area, it DOES NOT MEAN they cannot make a decision about anything. You must always assume capacity when a person needs to make a decision. You cannot just make all the decisions for them.

This is an infantalising and borderline abusive attitude.

Crispy, I am sorry about your GF but like I said, you cannot use the experience of one or a few people to make rash statements about everyone living with a disease.

Baldricks

I’m really not meaning to generalise. I think it’s just come across poorly because it’s so personal to me, and I was upset at OP being attacked and made to feel bad on other pages with people acting like she had a choice.

What I really wanted to say is much more in line with what LimeCheesecaker said, which is that obviously the best case scenario would be a home where he has the supervision required to smoke but that from the OP this does not sound possible and therefore she mustn’t feel guilty if this is the case.

Some incredibly disrespectful attitudes here around people with dementia. Perhaps crispysausagerolls you may benefit from learning more about dementia and how it affects someone.

It certainly doesn’t mean they should lose their dignity, or respect from others. Care homes aren’t machines only there to keep people “fed and watered” and should be person centred and make reasonable adjustments for those they care for.

If a care home is going to struggle to facilitate a cigarette break I wonder how they ensure the residents are engaged in regular meaningful activities? How they manage hospital or GP visits without family help? How they interact in a purposeful and meaningful way with the people that live there?

www.dementiafriends.org.uk This is somewhere you can find training sessions on dementia.

I'd buy him the fags. Definitely

crispy

She shouldn't feel guilty, she is doing the best she can. No one should be attacked for trying to help their aged relative as a lot of people couldn't give a toss. So this post is a very good thing.

And I understand that it is a personal subject for you. Nothing is ever easy when dementia is involved. But I would avoid posting with any authority in a thread like this. As a senior carer in a dementia-specialising home, I am afraid the things you've said are misinformed and I would hope no one would take them to heart.

hula008

Not really sure how you’ve missed from my posts that my experience is from watching someone close to me with dementia. Very aware how it affects someone, thanks. Not sure what I’ve said that’s been disrespectful or worthy of you being so rude/patronising.

I also completely agree with you that homes are not just to keep people fed and watered (not sure where I’ve said otherwise), but that the OP was about her not having a choice as she couldn’t find homes that accepted a smoker! So I understood the situation as “my father has no where safe to live if i buy him cigarettes”. Which seems fairly black and white to me.

BaldricksTrousers

I’m not trying to “post with authority”, i am merely sharing my experience in relation to this subject (and as I said, in the hope of backing up OP against people who will have made her feel guilty). I am completely entitled to do this. I have said several times I am not a carer, and that other people will know much more than me about this. However I am still entitled to an opinion - no one has to agree with me, and maybe I haven’t articulated myself well but I’m not going to avoid posting on threads just because I don’t have the same level as experience as someone else. That’s not the point of public forums.

You have the right to post your opinion, but I have the right to let you know that your opinion could be read as disrespectful, infantalising, and against the human rights of people with dementia. And a blatant disregard of the mental capacity act. Sure, by all means post your experiences, but don't paint every person with dementia with the same brush.

crispysausagerolls tbh it is a financial / profit thing a lot of the time. Its difficult to attract decent staff without decent pay / training and protected work loads. (I know there's care workers out there doing a sterling job despite this btw, and there are some decent homes.) But often the bare minimum is paid out to run the homes whilst the owners sit back and watch the profits roll in. I know this having spent many years inspecting homes and scrutinising their financial paperwork. Its not pretty.

It is extremely dangerous and damaging to see people with cognitive disabilities and impairments as children. For many reasons.

Fair enough crispy and I’m sorry about your grandfather, it’s a terribly cruel disease.

Tantrums I think is a very emotive word and could be why people (myself included) have bitten back so much. It’s absolutely not a tantrum, it’s distress, fear, confusion, anger at their own confusion, worry about why they’re confused, or even sometimes locked in where they’re reliving a day in the past that is traumatic (I had one woman who repeatedly relived the day her husband died and she was in such terrible distress it was heartbreaking to witness. But for her it was so fresh, every time was the first time to her).

So I think tantrums conjures up a different picture in most people’s minds and can come across as dismissive if that makes sense.

I absolutely don’t criticise anyone who is forced to put a family member into a care home, it must be an extremely traumatic and difficult decision and time for them. I am sorry if I implied you’d done wrong, I didn’t mean to.

The reason I mentioned my dad is that he’s begged me never to put him in a home, and I promised my Mum before she died that I would keep that promise. Dad looks like he may be developing dementia and it is killing me, because he’s losing bits of himself and is struggling with it. I hope that I am able to somehow keep my promise.