To think 9-5 attendance at work is becoming a bit unnecessary?

[user1485342611]

With modern technology an awful lot of jobs could now be done remotely cutting out long commutes etc and also giving people a bit of flexibility around the hours they work.

Yet the default position in general seems to be that everyone should be in the office, between x hour and y hour, 5 days a week.

AIBU to think that this is becoming less necessary and far more workers could work from home at least part of the time, using remote access and being contactable by phone when needed?

Good point re people putting in the hours but fuck all else. We do have a real problem with productivity in the UK, despite putting in more hours than most countries in Europe. This does rather suggest that our approach could be improved. I expect we have all worked with people who effectively hide behind their early starts and late finishes.

I think it's also about the "waiting around" element. I used to work in a (horrific) job in Group finance for a massive plc (so tempted to name and shame). We'd often be hanging around 3-6pm for , say, the auditors to review something, and then work on it resolving queries 6-10pm. At least if I was WFH I could get other stuff done in that dead time.

Presenteeism can actually mask a lot of idling around

Absolutely this! I can think of a couple of colleagues immediately in my old office that spent most of the day either on the internet or chatting. I have a set amount of tasks to do now so if I spend time on MN for example, I'm only taking time away from my self! I get all my work done to a high standard, meet with my manager about once a month and I know they're happy with me. Some days I might put in a bit more time, sometimes less. But the work gets done. Everyone's happy.

It's not necessarily true that you can't find a few minutes here and there if you're really working glaciferous. I wfh at least once most weeks, I get shitloads done, but I am also usually able to do things like empty a washing machine or dishwasher while I wait for the kettle. I can see that doing stuff at lunchtime isn't going to work if you're doing short days around school hours- I expect you probably don't have much of a lunch break. But I usually manage half an hour for lunch and have popped to the corner for milk during that time. And I am very productive.

My work already have open diary access wherever you are and I wouldn't be arsed about keystrokes. Although, if you did want to use wfh to waste time online you'd presumably still have your phone...

Yes, I can do all those things like empty the dishwasher when I would otherwise be commuting and that is a bonus - but that isn't actually working time

But surely if you start work instead of commuting you can take that time back later in the day? I used to leave my house at 7:45 to be at work by 9. Now I start work at 8 so have already done an hours work by my old start time. I then have an hour extra during "office" hours to do other things.

My ex used to have odd days wfh and once I was off at the same time and saw that he actually spent the whole day in bed with his laptop! And yes, I used to get annoyed when I'd come home and find literally nothing had been done. In fact he'd created mess by leaving his dirty dishes, cups etc in the bedroom! As a couple of pp have said, its easy to just stick the dishwasher on while you boil the kettle. I don't call that "skiving".

Presenteeism can actually mask a lot of idling around.

^^

Totally agree. I swear most work could be done in 4 hours. But some people take 8 (and the piss)

If I worked from home I'd save 1.5 hours per day, sometimes 2 on commuting.

If I spend that unpacking the dishwasher then so be it. I'd clock on at 9 am, as it were, as usual.

I know someone who does a "Mon-Fri job but takes every Wednesday off. He's just like "Look, I find it really hard to work efficiently for more than 3 days in a row and I also like golf and have no kids, so I'll play golf on Wednesdays and then work on Sundays".

He gets the job done and actually says Sunday is his most efficient day.

It’s mostly experienced people saying this. What about when you started. Trainees. If there is no one experienced in the office half the time how are they supposed to learn, ask advice etc? Also unless the work is very deadline, commission driven more people are likely to take the piss.
Dh worked for a company where the hr director promoted working remotely and he never saw her. She was supposed to be one of his main ports of call. She seriously took the piss and had no relationship with any of the staff. But she was board level so difficult to get rid of.

I do a call centre role at home. I love it.
I have no commute, I can work around school times and I just work for a fantastic company.

I don’t understand why more companies don’t get on board with homeworking. Technology these days makes almost anything possible.

"Er, not if you are actually working you can't. I work from home, school hours and term time only, and because I really appreciate the flexibility this gives me with school holidays and not needing childcare I make it an absolute priority to actually work when it is time to do so. Yes, I can do all those things like empty the dishwasher when I would otherwise be commuting and that is a bonus - but that isn't actually working time."

Even in an office people don't just put their heads down and work non stop from 9-5. That's just not possible. Everyone needs a bit of a break now and then. In an office you might turn around and chat for a few minutes to the person beside you, or go up to the kitchen and make yourself a cup of coffee, or log into a news website to check the headlines.

At home you can use those few minutes to put the breakfast dishes into the dishwasher, or hang out a wash or whatever. I made it clear in my post that's what I meant, but you didn't quote that bit.

That does rather suggest you/your company aren't paying enough to make working bank holidays worthwhile for all the employees...

you don't pay people to make it worthwhile for them, you pay them according to what they bring and the market rate - from the legal minimum rate obviously. If people can't be bothered to work because they are not happy with their salary, they are free to leave and find themselves something more satisfactory.

That attitude is the first reason why someone will see neither payrise or bonus for a start.

I'm working from home today and really haven't done an awful lot as I'm exhausted after a stressful few days with my mum ill in hospital.

But I'm ahead of my deadlines because a job that I had mapped out time for actually ended up taking much less time, and I'm answering emails and am available for phone calls.

You don't always need to work an 8 hour day to get your job done.

He gets the job done and actually says Sunday is his most efficient day.

we have that too, but we have quite a few clients in the Middle East. If all our clients were based in England, it would be impossible because they would expect to contact you during office hours, Monday to Friday. Some people refuse to work at weekends - and fair enough.

I am very much in favour of WFH and flexibility, but I don't think it's practical to imagine it becoming the main way of working.

If there is no one experienced in the office half the time how are they supposed to learn, ask advice etc?

Again, this is something that people in managerial positions need to manage themselves and it's measurable via 360 degree feedback. But with phone/ Skype/webchat and email, there are many ways. I've worked with an 8 hour time difference to my line manager for 7 years and physically see her 3 times a year if I'm lucky, but it works really well.

My husband only goes to the office once or twice a week. It’s both a blessing and a curse!

To be fair, wfh doesn't always equal flexibility. If I have booked out an afternoon working remotely and I have appointments to speak to clients at various times, those aren't any more optional than they would be if I were physically in the office.

In terms of people needing training from people who are physically there, yes, but nonetheless there are still organisations who manage to have wfh policies and still train staff too. You simply make sure there are people there to train them: that can be through some staff being those who can't wfh, in the same way as eg cabin crew can't. Or it can be through them always having a certain number of people around physically in the office but not necessarily the same people.

It's also perfectly possible to supervise trainees remotely in some fields. I've done it from home on days I'm not even working at all, let alone wfh with no screeching toddlers and already logged on!

@babynut would you mind sharing who you work for? PM me if that’s better? I have a friend applying for homeworking call centre roles but she’s struggling to find one to fit around school

I am very much in favour of WFH and flexibility, but I don't think it's practical to imagine it becoming the main way of working.

Possibly, but I suspect that within my lifetime, the concept of the 5 day week with "office hours" and a weekend will have vanished.

you don't pay people to make it worthwhile for them, you pay them according to what they bring and the market rate - from the legal minimum rate obviously. If people can't be bothered to work because they are not happy with their salary, they are free to leave and find themselves something more satisfactory.

That attitude is the first reason why someone will see neither payrise or bonus for a start.

And yet I will be on the receiving end of both this year...

The fact is that if you pay people enough that they actually feel it's worth their while to come in, they do. I used to get double time on bank holidays, back in the day. You bet your arse I never skived. If an employer wants reliable staff on a bank holiday and is finding this difficult to achieve, that indicates that they need to pay more on the bank holiday in order to achieve reliable staff. The staff who don't want to work bank holidays are free to leave and find something more satisfactory: equally the employer who doesn't want to pay what it takes to secure reliability is also free to also change their wage structure. If they don't, eh, sometimes it isn't possible to come up with a mutually acceptable arrangement between employer and employee. Oh well.

yes and no - water cooler chats and face to face stuff is really important to team dynamics.

It's a question of negotiating. In my current role, at the offer stage I negotiated 1 day work from home per week and slightly different work hours to everyone else because it suited me better (8:30-5 rather than 9-5:30). I got this with no salary sacrifice, the mindset of management is very much anti-flexi working. I did it because I really was prepared to walk away form the job if they couldnt sort it for me. My ability to do the job rested on their flexibility and I made that extremely clear. They accepted it no problem and I have it written into my contract: 37.5 hours a week (full time) 8:30-5pm and one day to be worked from home.

My commute is an absolute bastard (90mins door to door each way) so my 1 day a week form home allows me to have a non-5am start once a week, get out for a good long dog walk on my lunch break and generally recharge away form the office. I'm more productive in the office as a result. My work from home day allows me to smash through a ton of admin I can't do in the office too and generally, I start about 7am and finish up about 7:30pm on that day with an hour break, so they actually get more work out of me.

I agree, especially when I have to take unpaid leave if DS is sick and I'm quite capable of doing my job from home, most people can do their jobs from a laptop and phone. BUT I also know if I had the option to work from home most days I would end up dossing, but that's just me.

Our little company is all output based, so as long as the work is done at the right quality and on time, nobody really gets worked up about it. We seem some clients who have a very rigid approach (for whatever reason) and being the-fly-on-the-wall we see a lot of less than optimum performance, often related to an issue at home that if the person had been at home they could've sorted and cracked on.