to ask how do private schools produce such "confident" kids / adults and how I can do it at home?

[dragontwo]

Ok, I have my reservations about private schools, but I recognise that often they produce kids / adults with high self confidence and self assurance.

I want to know how they do this, how they drill this confidence into them, and how I can replicate any beneficial aspects of this at home into my own kid (state schooled)?

What do they say / do / teach that encourages them to be so confident and expect success?

I know there are down sides to everything but I'm just thinking about good ideas I can help my kid. NB I'm no tiger mother and do my best to encourage my kid as it is already but just looking for ideas and general thoughts on how it's done!!

Just curious!

I went to an independent girls' school that you've probably heard of, as a boarder. On paper I'm extremely accomplished (if I do say so myself!) and have had countless opportunities to excel - academically, professionally, athletically, etc etc. However, in private I struggle with anxiety and insecurity and twenty years later am spending many thousands of pounds on therapy to unpick the emotional damage it created.

Of course I can't say for sure that I'd have turned out any better if I hadn't had that experience, or that a different school wouldn't have been a better fit. I just know that the public personas we create don't tell the whole story - while we all look incredibly privileged, I know that I'm not the only one of my school friends who struggle with reality not quite matching up to our extremely high expectations of ourselves.

I have spent DS's entire education at a well-known public school coming to terms with the fact that I haven't got a son who displays that confident ring of authority, and that paying for his education will not change that. Initially, I tried to make him join clubs; take part in competitions; do after-school activities; and make eye contact when he talked to adults. Eventually, I realised that if I continued, I was going to make him feel like I wished I had had a different type of son, so I have accepted him the way he is, and my job now is to defend his right to be who he is. I do think that a private education can confer something on kids, and who knows - maybe my son would be even more retiring had I sent him to a state school? - but it really isn't a given. Good luck with your choices, OP. I don't regret private for an instant.

Applekate Most independent schools post subject and university of undergraduate or MA/PHD very rarely do they publish ‘pgce’ or ‘QTS’

That is rubbish. A PhD is not a teaching qualification, show me one state school without PGCE qualified teachers. It is pure snobbery assuming that having a PGCE is somehow inferior to the profession of teaching compared to a PhD which it is not. One is an academic discipline the other a qualification on how to teach. No state school would allow it, more shame on the private sector. They get away with it by claiming charitable status, more examples of privilege and elitism.I know this as I did a thesis on it for one of my two MAs in education after a four year Oxbridge first class degree. Then did a PGCE so I had the right to earn and call myself a teacher. The rest is snobbish tosh and bribing you all into thinking that teaching qualifications do not matter and taking your cash for untrained staff, when good old nepotism rules, for the rich.

Many private schools do publish their teachers’ qualifications, including PGCE/QTS.

Exactly my point Loopy, but some posters are claiming they don't need to, rather than the fact they don't actually have the training. I agree with you. Look at Eton not a qualified teacher among them, risible! If they are trained they will say it. People are paying vast amounts of money for untrained staff unless stated as Loopy and I agree on.

I think the confidence has to be instilled at home and at school.

I am a bit more together now (I should think so, I'm in my 50s!) but I was taught by my mother always to put other people first, never push yourself forward, stand at the back etc etc. Rather than, "No one puts Baby in the corner," it was "Make straight for the corner and keep your head down!"

So in spite of being very academic and having a heap of qualifications, I have never had any swishy-haired confidence and gleam. My dcs are quite shy and not ones to push themselves forward either, so I guess it's a bit of nature as well as nurture.

I would say though that there is a very fine line between a pleasant air of self-confidence and a fetid aroma of entitlement.

I would say though that there is a very fine line between a pleasant air of self-confidence and a fetid aroma of entitlement.

Absolutely agree with this. I know of so few people who manage to demonstrate that fine line - either in the work place or socially. It's something I would love for my children to achieve.

Cheerymom - How do you know “most” don’t? And where’s your evidence for it? Funnily enough all the ones I’ve come across in our hunt for schools do exactly that.

IWillSurviv I'm not taking sides here, I've got a child in private education and think that the results from his school and all the other independent schools in the area - there's a lot - do tend to suggest that unqualified teachers are adequate teachers given the right environment (though possibly can't control a larger class or manage a class with varying abilities), but Cheerymom did say I know this as I did a thesis on it for one of my two MAs in education after a four year Oxbridge first class degree.

I would suggest that she has probably done the research.

I don't think teacher training makes a difference tbh.
I was mostly taught how to fire fight and lots of different things that don't relate to private schools.
A PgCE is pretty necessary to teach in a state school, whereas subject knowledge and experience of teaching is necessary in a private school.
I don't know who is and who isn't qualified in my dd school, she's getting a far better/ more suitable education than she would in a state school and that's all that matters to me.
She is treated like an individual and they have their own personal education plan unlike state schools where they are taught the same subjects the same way.

Do these untrained/unqualified teachers at private schools get better results or worse results than their trained/qualifed counterparts in state schools?

Are private schools happy to keep teachers who consistently fail to get the children through their exams with high grades on their staff?

Because qualified/non qualified is surely not a measure of how well a teacher can do their job? Surely the measure of a good teacher is whether or not they produce happy and engaged students who reach their potential and gain high grades in their public exams.

So whether or not a teacher has QTS is irrelevant. There are plenty of utterly shite teachers out there who have QTS, and plenty of fantastic teachers out there who do not.

I'd prefer to send my child to a school who had the freedom to employ the best teachers, regardless of qualification, and who consistently proved the worth of their teachers by producing excellent all round outcomes for the children that they teach.

Because go to any Independent school staff list and there will be loads missing PGCES see the two examples, because they don't actually have them, as they don't legally need them whereas in state schools they DO need PGCES it is the law. Look at the Oxford High example, not all if even half have teacher have teacher training, they have BAs MAs etc but they are not teacher training they are academic qualifications.

"So an 'unqualified teacher' is someone who has not passed the QTS process in England. It doesn't necessarily mean that person can't teach, or that they have no teaching experience or qualifications. Teachers in private schools do not need QTS, so a teacher switching from the independent sector to the state sector is counted as an unqualified teacher. And teachers who are already qualified abroad are technically unqualified in England, though they may be eligible to for QTS without further training, depending on the country they trained in.'

As plain as day you can be considered qualified in independent schools but not state. And I have seen the abuse of this, very good (GDST) schools taking on newly qualified graduate to teach really complex A level subjects, just to fail and the fee paying parents have no idea they think the teacher is highly qualified as a teacher. Its a way for the independent sector to save money and one of the reasons I left a very successful career at a GDST school. It is morally wrong and little known about. AT least at a state sixth from college your teacher is tranied and experience. Goes on all the time.

And as all A levels are taken by two teachings the blame is shared. Ever wonder why theres an exodus of great A leave teachers from established schools? Its also cheaper for the school, they call the new member a 'grated' i.e. train on the job then ask them to leave after two years. Go to a school with long established respected properly qualified A Level teachers. Any decent teacher can wing it to KS3 but beyond that you are being screwed out of decent cash, go to your local state sixth form, at least staff will know what they are doing.

It's wrong if parents believe their dc teachers have QTS and they don't.
I only have limited experience but parents I know from the private sector so half a dozen schools throughout the country, aren't bothered.
They expect their teachers to have subject knowledge above anything else.
Their language teachers are expected to have travelled, lived in the country of the language they are teaching, be fluent, and highly qualified in their subject.
They aren't bothered about what state school teachers do in QTS, it simply doesn't apply.
Differentiation wrt sn is done by the senco who also covers those less able without sen.
There really isn't anything from QTS or a PgCE that is applicable to some private schools.

But private schools attract parents to a large degree by the results that they produce. It's one of their biggest selling points.

So "qualified" or "unqualified", they pick the best teachers who produce the best results. Ones that help their students to achieve highly.

The teacher whose class is happy, engaged and motivated and achieves their potential (which will be reflected in high results) is a better teacher than the teacher whose class is miserable, demotivated and fails to achieve their potential.

QTS is not a measure of how good a teacher is. It is merely an indicator that they have completed a particular course.

The private sector has the ability to choose their staff based on merit and results, rather than simply a qualification.

Also all A levels are taught by two teachers so the untrained generally useless one does not soldier the blame so the others leave. Mass crisis of excellent A Level teachers in UK>

I have 4 adult children and one of them was privately educated. They all have roughly the same quals and are equally successful. But the privately educated definitely was that private school ‘Je ne said quois’. No idea how they achieve this!

Auntjobiska - My question wasn’t about PGCEs v PhDs or their superiority.Infact reading back now, my question should have been directed at AppleKate.

I was asking how she knows most Independent schools do not declare on their staff list wether a teacher has a PGCE as the ones I’ve come across (small sample I know) have.

My question to cheerymom However and whilst neutral on this subject is, if private schools are employing under qualified teachers whilst their state counterparts would never allow it unless you have the right qualifications, then how is this an example of Privilege and elitism? Surely it is the private school children who are being shortchanged?

And they inflate those grade usually. I have seen cheating one to one on coursework, illegal, I have seen a HOD rubbing out marks written in pencil, I have seen teachers actually making 90% of practical projects. Its all par of the privilege and if we teachers tell, we get asked so hardly worth it. Students usually have tutors for all subjects etc. It is not an equal playing field and many staff are picked form the same system they play along. Which is why I left, after winning teacher of the year award and consistently excellent results and respect. Would rather make an honest living in a state school. Am opting out of tis now. Good luck to all.xx

I'm a bit baffled by the comments about unqualified teachers. I have no idea if any of mine didn't have specific teacher training qualifications, but given that the school was the top of the league tables, I'm not sure that anyone would have had any complaints about the quality of the teaching even if they were.

If the students are all achieving great results and going on to excellent universities, then I'd have thought they were adequately imparting academic knowledge to their pupils...!

Why would a private school employ a useless teacher, and how come they get so much better results and outcomes for their children if all their teachers are useless?

Once again, having QTS does not guarantee that a person is a good teacher. Not having QTS does not mean that a person is not a good teacher. It simply means that someone has done a particular course.

The proof of the pudding is under the crust - the best evidence of a person being a good teacher is great outcomes for their students. This is what a private school looks for when employing staff, and they have the freedom to choose the best person for the job, regardless of QTS status.

Why would I want to remove my children from their high achieving private school, to the low achieving state six form, just because the state six form has a smaller pool of people to choose their staff from?

I Will because they feel they can play outside the rules by using money and cheating. Simple. Lots of tutoring too and rearrangement of results when coursework is involved. Cheating parents too who have no clue, imagine your A Level student being taught by a recent graduate?

No state school would allow it

I don't think this is true. It is certainly allowed to have unqualified teachers in academies (one of the reasons unions were against them) and the private school I teach in publishes our academic qualifications but not the PGCE. The vast majority of my colleagues have taught in state schools and I know of none who don't have QTS.

I resent the idea that A level teachers in private schools don't know what they are doing. Frankly, I do know how to teach my subject up to, and including, A level. If you think "anyone can wing it to KS3" then you clearly don't know what you are talking about, regardless of how many post graduate qualifications you have. Anyone can stand up in front of a KS3 class - but it takes a great deal of skill and subject knowledge to teach effectively that age group.

I have seen cheating one to one on coursework, illegal, I have seen a HOD rubbing out marks written in pencil, I have seen teachers actually making 90% of practical projects.

I've seen that in state schools too. Hence coursework being scrapped in the vast majority of subjects.

My private school only employed experienced teachers, they weren't going to put someone with no experience into an A-level course to prepare pupils for Oxbridge!

Back in my day there wasn't much / any course work so it was all exam based, and any additional tutoring for anyone struggling was provided by the same teachers at lunchtime to give the pupil 1-1 coaching

I don't recognise that description at all. But just my experience