To think Scotland has a better future than England

[hadenough]

The state of the UK today makes me utterly depressed. A Brexit voted for on the basis of lies, an anti-immigrant rhetoric, and a general attitude of unwelcome.

But yet, in Scotland, the message is very different - a focus on welcoming people to the country, an opposition to Brexit, and a real debate about the future.

It genuinely saddens me to be part of a wider country that appears intent on going back, but never forward.

They’ve already excluded the Common Weal from events as they don’t agree with them.

If you’re going to get angry about exclusions, why aren’t you angry that EVEL was kicked in for a parliamentary debate recently but that the DUP and Plaid Cymru voted? Neither are English, so it was solely to exclude the SNP.

If wwe have the resources and skills why aren’t we using them now?
All this stuff about a rosy future, why not now or even 10 years ago, or whatever it is that an SNP came to power.
I voted for independence but am thankful we didn’t get it, SNP are making a Nanny state.
Scotland isn’t particularly United anyway, the Glaswegians don’t like the snooty Edinburgh folk. Aberdeen is a law unto itself, the highs and isles are full of incomes anyway. And the south will continue to be ignored by you all. I don’t see much hope on our own. Small EU countries have major centres a train ride away, not the case here.

Trixy, the debate will be had with the party grassroots and the wider independence movement in a nationwide debate.

Keith Brown has said "That debate is not for us - of course. The national assemblies are about the SNP - but we also have a responsibility to set out a credible plan for independence, and to listen to others, and to take on their ideas. So I'll also engage in a wider discussion, inviting trade unions and business groups, as well as people from across civic Scotland, and of course the wider Yes family to share their views with us. And whatever we decide - and it will be our members who decide - our position will reject austerity. "

Now, that is the SNP. I welcome any other party coming up with credible ideas for independence. Please, other parties, do come up with ideas for an independent Scotland and how best to do things for Scotland's good and her people's good.

Which part of the vow wasn’t delivered?

Is that a serious question?

this

Don’t you remember the “No vote will protect the shipbuilding on the Clyde” promise? How did that work out for them?

Or the guarantee that we’d have significant devolved powers? Where are they? And how does a devolved nations power grab reverting to Westminster post brexit match up with that?

There was significant scaremongering that the Clyde shipbuilders would go under in the event of a Yes vote. They’ve gone under anyway.

Ditto fishing rights, they’re being used as a brexit bargaining tool with no thought for the industry.

So you tell me, what parts of The Vow HAVE been delivered? Beyond a few more powers to shut people up and make a good sound bite?

I agree that the cognitive dissonance is absolutely staggering. We are much more deeply integrated with the UK than the EU and so any shocks from Brexit would surely be massively amplified by independence. How could plunging ourselves into the austerity that the SNP’s own report says will happen (and is likely to be the optimistic view) possibly buffer any shocks from Brexit? It makes zero sense.

For me all this damage is simply pointless. We have an extremely powerful devolved assembly and can already basically guide our own future. From what I’ve seen the nationalist argument is based largely on hatred of the ‘other’ with the implication that we’re so much better. Unlike Brexit, in this case it’s Westminster/Tories, but the arguments are the same. Just read this thread to see that.

"If wwe have the resources and skills why aren’t we using them now?
All this stuff about a rosy future, why not now or even 10 years ago, or whatever it is that an SNP came to power."

Fflamingo, I don't know if you've noticed, but Scotland is not independent. Our resources and skills are drained to London. Google the McCrone Report to see what happened when Scotland was found to have vast resources.

I agree with you that Scotland has been very, very badly managed by Westminster. We have the resources and skills to do very well as an independent country (like other independent countries - independence is the normal thing for the vast majority of countries in the world)

I thought Clydebank engineering largely disappeared decades ago.
So what are these great changes an independent gov will mAke to transform our lives.
I would like to think it is possible but really it’s pie in the sky.

This is exhausting! Y0uCann0tBeSer10us, are my posts and others being typed in invisible ink? We have addressed everything in your post and you are still posting this.

Fflamingo, why did you vote yes in 2014 if that is what you think?

Sorry, meant to say, I genuinely want to know what has changed your mind since then.

ah so I see you are making up what you THINk the vow said rather than what it actually did. What a surprise that the SNP think it hasn’t been delivered

Nothing was said about shipbuilding, although the CLYDE shipyards order books are full until 2030. That wouldn’t have happened under a yes vote.

Extensive powers have been granted to Scotland under the smith commission. The SNP don’t seem too keen to use them though...

What resources and skills that will make others beat a path to our doors?
The big employers in this area are the hospital and schools. And the SGov know raising taxes on the rich would see them move south, so that won’t work.

@Fflamingo defence contracts (BAE systems) were on the Clyde until after 2014, used as a carrot on a stick by Better Together and then promptly dropped and moved out with Scotland. So no, shipbuilding for defence on the Clyde isn’t in the distant past, it’s within the last 4 years.

What are all the benefits of staying part of the Union? Because I’m not hearing many of these. The Nats are all aggressively told to defend our stance, even in the face of mockery, sneering and downright bullshit.

So, time to turn the tables. Why stay? If Scotland leeches off England (not my implication but it’s been implied more than once on this thread) why were the 3 parties so keen to keep Scotland? If we take more than we put in, bring nothing to the table and are a drain on the economy, why didn’t they just sit back and let us go?

No I voted against Brexit. Doesn't follow that I agree with anything the OP posted or have the slightest desire to see my country become independent from the rest of the UK.

Yes, I agree with SoddingUnicorns. Why shouldn't we be independent? Why wouldn't it work for Scotland?

I voted yes thinking the Scottish gov would kick ass , that there would be funding for new IT colleges/ research. That huge investment would go to new state of the art engineering courses and encouragement for new local and foreign business. That we would be at the forefront of world tech and science. ..... none of that happened instead schools are getting worse and we got baby boxes and tighter drinking laws than anywhere in the world . Pathetic.

Still no one has said how the gov would make Scotland great if we became independent. Just more complaints about how badly treated we are now!

Oh look, ships being built by BAE on the Clyde? Are these imaginary?

That is quite funny OP, cheered me right up!

What do we not have that we would need to be a very successful independent country? If we had control over our own immigration laws we would invite people here to work in our industries and they would pay tax. Fraser of Allander Institute estimates of our GNI "confirm that Scotland is a wealthy and prosperous country". Why aren't we independent?

Scotland already pays a lot of the costs of running a country now, whether the costs of running devolved services or contributions to Westminster responsibilities on Scotland's behalf. Scotland pays for, pro rata 'our' share of UK national institutions and agencies and services - like Mi5, MI6, Scotland Yard, Whitehall, diplomats, consulates, ambassadors, a foreign office, etc etc. WE are not allowed to share them for nothing. If we were independent we would be paying for all that but the jobs would be here, in Scotland, and the well-paid employees would be paying tax here, in Scotland.

Are these imaginary?

PARTS of ships being built on the Clyde, hardly the 13 full ships promised.

Fflamingo, none of that happened because the No side won.

Oh and Westminster are in the middle of a consultation to see if they can move the meagre scraps of what they did leave on the Clyde to Portsmouth.

So basically you're angry with the Scottish government because the No side won.

Sorry, that was to Fflamingo