To think Scotland has a better future than England

[hadenough]

The state of the UK today makes me utterly depressed. A Brexit voted for on the basis of lies, an anti-immigrant rhetoric, and a general attitude of unwelcome.

But yet, in Scotland, the message is very different - a focus on welcoming people to the country, an opposition to Brexit, and a real debate about the future.

It genuinely saddens me to be part of a wider country that appears intent on going back, but never forward.

Rona, I think the only person who has ever said 'too small, too poor, too stupid' was Nicola Sturgeon.

As far as 'the promise' is concerned, it didn't sway my vote one iota.

The arguments for remaining within the UK are pretty much exactly the same arguments for remaining within the EU - primarily economic, primarily because much of Scotland's trade is with the rest of the UK and it would take generations to find other markets.

My big gripe with the referendum was the argument that Scotland could attract business and investment if it was independent. There is absolutely nothing stopping Scotland from going out to attract more business and investment NOW, we don't have to be an independent country do do that.

I would have far more truck with independence if the Scottish Government proved itself capable of running a successful country now - and don't use the excuse that we are being stymied by Westminster - doesn't cut it.

And as for Scots being somehow better than people in the rest of the UK - cobblers!

Agree wholeheartedly Cal

Raglan. Scotland within the UK is being taken out of the EU. We are not a good bet for inward investment at the moment. The UK is an international laughing stock.

If / when independent we could become a good place to invest especially if we could stay in or get back into the EU. At the very least we could allow workers / taxpayers in as we would have control of our own immigration policy.

Yes, but my comment was based on a period way before the EU referendum was even on the cards.

The EU referendum was on the cards at the time the Scottish referendum was held, Cameron said he was going to hold one back in 2013.

And my point is that it is not just Scotland being dragged out of the EU against its will, it is also all the Remain voters in the rest of the UK. And particularly Gibraltar, whose peoples' views are being completely ignored. 97% voted to stay in the EU!

Oh Christ, the ‘abusive partner’ analogy again. This is just not a reality I recognise!

On a related note, the SNP’s behaviour in PMQs today is a perfect illustration of why there is very little agreement between Holyrood and Westminster. It was the most childish thing I’ve ever seen on PMQs (which is actually saying something!). For those who didn’t see it, Ian Blackford put forward a proposal for an emergency vote in his questions and was told it would be debated at the end of the session, in line with proper protocols. He then refused to sit back down and continued to disrupt the session, preventing anyone else from speaking, and was eventually asked to leave. The ENTIRE SNP contingent then threw their toys out the pram and followed, including 6 members who had been due to ask questions and who obviously didn’t then do so (hope there weren’t any pressing matters for their constituents!). It was seriously embarrassing to see so many of Scotland’s representatives (although by no means all thankfully) behaving like stropy teenagers who want their way NOW and to hell with anyone else. When the SNP don’t even attempt to work by the Westminster system it’s a wonder any progress is made at all quite frankly.

@Y0uCann0tBeSer10us Yes, and claiming it is no abuse is itself abuse. And what is comparing Scots to babies? You compare Scots standing up for themselves to babies throwing toys out of prams. Do you realize that last night the Maybot effectively ended the Scottish devolution settlement and rigged the process so there could be no debate? Ended the devolution settlement as we know it! What are the Scottish MPs supposed to do? Sit there meekly and do what their betters tell them?! Seriously, the number of people who wish to stigmatise protest and disagreement from weaker parties when that party is the Scots. Psychological abuse defined. Good on the SNP for standing up for the people. Wish the same could be said about Labour.

unionists are hardly losing the argument rona, based on the polls. You have compared britain to the ottoman empire and to an abusive partner on this thread and talked about not needing 'English' beneficence. There are more than the English in Britain.

Firstly, I did not compare Scots to babies (I am one for goodness sake), I compared the SNP to babies because that is how they acted. The SNP or the Nationalist movement most definitely do not represent all Scots, whatever their rhetoric, a fact I’m very grateful for. They had an opportunity to get the debate they claim was denied them (and they are not the only ones unhappy about the lack of debate), but stropped off instead in favour of some student-like protesting, and so now their voices most definitely won’t be heard on the matter.

FWIW I don’t actually believe that there is an attempted power grab - we’re talking about powers held by Brussels that we’re never conceived of at the time of devolution, which is why there is no legal recourse (only publicity stunts) for the SNP. Scotgov will end up with more powers than it holds currently, with the only ones held back by Westminster being those necessary to ensure smooth running of the U.K. This is perfectly reasonable.

Raglan, your arguments against Scotland being independent are economic - how would being in control of our own economy, our own immigration, or own everything, be worse for Scotland's economy than being handcuffed to the UK, particularly as it crashes out of the EU, particularly as it has just performed a power grab so that it can override Scotland's democratic wishes and trade away our carefully built up industries and food standards and fishing?

I'm sorry @cornishstripes there appear to be issues with reading comprehension. Anyone can read these posts for themselves, no-one needs to rely on your tendentious summary. You won't find me comparing Britain to the Ottomans, though I'd be happy to if the relevant situation arose. If I remember, you wanted to compare Scotland and Greece (a natural comparison for any unionist, obviously,), and I asked you if you if you thought Greeks would want to rejoin the Ottoman Empire. You told us that you didn't know if Greeks were better off outside the Ottoman Empire. But so what?

Nope, don't see any 'Power Grab'. View this in the same way as Westminster adopting EU legislation so that they don't have to unravel EU legislation on day one of Brexit - all issues currently within the EU will be brought back to Westminster, then work will begin on devolving/repealing etc.

Your references to Scotland's 'democratic wishes' show you appear to already think of Scotland as an independent country. It isn't.

why would you mention greece and the ottoman empire if you weren't comparing the relationship rona? You're either disingenuous, or you don't understand your own argument. Scotland wants to be free as Greece wanted to be free was exactly what you were driving at, surely?

yes, of course people can read mumsnet posts for themselves and good luck to them wading through this.

@Y0uCann0tBeSer10us The SNP were standing up for the position of the vast majority of Scots, including the majority of No voters. The procedure and process was rigged and the decision dealt in complete contempt for Scottish democracy, the session was just a show for the TV audience. Walk outs are a respectable and long-established form of protest, if you compare such protests to baby behaviour you are demeaning it and stigmatising it. You may have preferred some other way of protesting, doubtlessly many others will agree with you, but people willing to stage walkouts in defence of devolution and Scottish democracy, or indeed in any other worthy cause, are not babies.

Nice try, @cornishstripes, you are the one who brought up Greece ('How much do you think small, independent Greece has enjoyed its EU membership?')

Scotland within the UK is being taken out of the EU

But wouldn't independence have dragged Scotland out of the EU.

It's still a good question, many people think Greece ought to drop out of the eurozone.

I'm not sure what you think I'm trying rona - I brought Greece up because it's an independent country in the EU as Scotland aspires to be, if the yes vote had won, Scotland would have a larger deficit than Greece, a eurozone economic basket case. You were the one that first mentioned the Ottoman empire.

@ronatheseal I fully support a person's right to protest peacefully if they so choose. But this is not the student union, it's the country's representatives trying to settle a very difficult and complicated issue in an orderly fashion. If a person is elected on the back of a lot of bluster about standing up for/representing Scotland, then wilfully discards the opportunity to do just that in a debate about a contentious issue in favour of storming out because they didn't get exactly their own way, of course I condemn that!

If this is the SNP's approach to conflict resolution I shudder to think how they would fare in negotiations at the highest level as representatives of an independent country. What if the EU doesn't offer us terms we like, or even accept us at all? Storm out and complain about how unfair it is? At this level their behaviour is extremely juvenile.

@cornishstripes Don't get me wrong, I know why you brought up Greece. It is a completely inappropriate comparison, you might as well compare us with Eritrea, but it suits the Scotland is deficient agenda. Anyway, however bad Greece is having it now, the question 'would it have been better under the Ottomans' still applies to your original argument. Greeks don't like the state their economy is in, but no-one thinks the solution is to become a subordinate province of a larger neighbour. In fact, their problem is that the are not sovereign. If their debt had been in the old drachma, they would be much better off. I don't accept that Scotland's problems are as bad as you think they are, but it is essentially irrelevant because the solution wouldn't be continued powerlessness and economic strangulation under London rule anyway.

@Y0uCann0tBeSer10us I don't know why you are comparing this to a student union. The Tories have the power to ride rough-shod over devolution and have chosen to do it, this isn't the 18th century, questions from outside parties aren't going to do anything. The Tories already know what the SNP think, they know what most Scots think, they know what the parliament thinks, they do not care. THEY CHOSE to go after the Scottish parliament despite the other responsibilities they had on their plate. They didn't need to engage in the power grab, and orderly Brexit was possible without it. They didn't care, they wanted more power. They couldn't get agreement, all four major parties in Scotland other than them rejected it. They went ahead anyway. They abused the procedure of the parliament yesterday to avoid debate. That's not something babies do, that's something fascists do. These are not times to be sitting on your hands worrying about whether or not the Daily Mail and Ruth Davidson fanatics will yell 'GRIEVANCE' in your face for standing up to bullying. If they don't stand up for it, no-one will. Walk outs are not juvenile or infantile, they are an integral part of democratic history. These are seriously dark times for both Britain and Scotland, people need to understand what's happening. Time to bin the Cringe, this is what standing up for yourself looks like.

"They couldn't get agreement, all four major parties in Scotland other than them rejected it. They went ahead anyway. They abused the procedure of the parliament yesterday to avoid debate. That's not something babies do, that's something fascists do. These are not times to be sitting on your hands worrying about whether or not the Daily Mail and Ruth Davidson fanatics will yell 'GRIEVANCE' in your face for standing up to bullying. If they don't stand up for it, no-one will. Walk outs are not juvenile or infantile, they are an integral part of democratic history."

^This, with bells on.

@Ronatheseal What are you talking about? Westminster did not go after the Scottish Parliament. They're not the boogie man out to destroy the Scots at any opportunity or fascists, and we're not facing the new dark ages. You sound incredibly paranoid.

Once again, Westminster CANNOT grab powers from Scotland that Scotland does not have to begin with. The powers being talked about are currently held by the EU (and presumably would go back should Scotland join the EU) and DID NOT EXIST before then, so there is a legal grey area about what to do with them. All powers will initially go back to Westminster because the UK is the EU member that is leaving and the power base of the UK is Westminster. The government will pass many of these directly on to the devolved governments, but some will be held back so that their implementation can be done properly and in a well-thought-out way (the Scottish government might do well to heed this principle a little more often). There is a convention concerning devolved areas but no legal requirements, and as stated above, these are unknown quantities and they will eventually come back to Scotland anyway. This is all completely reasonable, and THERE IS NO POWER GRAB no matter how loudly the SNP shout about it. There is no threat to devolution. And yes, this is just the latest grievance from the SNP.

They had the opportunity to be heard in parliament (about this, and whatever other matters were in the questions abandoned by SNP MPs), but chose not to use it. Instead, they all chose a cheap and, yes, juvenile, publicity stunt.

I think it was clever of Ian Blackford and the SNP. Scottish media hadn't reported yesterday's appalling treatment of devolution at Westminster - but now they have to at least mention it if they report on the walkout.

Youcannot - those powers were supposed to return to Scotland and Westminster have blocked that. Power grab. You can shout all you like but that is the truth.

You don't have to like it but try not to misinform.

I think it was clever of Ian Blackford and the SNP.

Really? It was embarrassing. Papers left behind in the chamber prove it was all pre-planned, scripted and rehearsed. It was a publicity stunt, nothing more. They should be ashamed of themselves, getting sent out for insubordination like naughty children. Especially as so many people think that the SNP represent the thoughts and opinions of ALL of us north of the border. (And to be fair, the SNP like to paint that picture too).

Well they don't represent me, and never will.